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09-19-2014, 07:29 PM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Are you sure you really have spare brain cycles.?
Clearly not as many as you have.

QuoteQuote:
The final cost of the Pentax full frame will be determined by volume. I'm sure they have a magic number that's their break even point, at a specific price. Their concern will be meeting that target. Saying they could make an FF for $2000, you mean like the Canon 6D or Nikon D610? uh, thanks but no thanks, I'll just buy an A7r. I'm not buying a camera that is out performed by my K-3, just because it's a full frame. After all APS-c does have it's advantages. Let's not be thinking they can go too cheap.
I didn't say "make", I said sell, and just like the RRP on a K-3 is somewhere north of $1000 and it's now selling for $1000, I'd expect the RRP on a full-frame version to be more than $2000. That clears out the gotta-havit early adopters, and positions them in the high-value, low-name recognition range of the market Pentax seems to like to play in.

Oh, BTW, A7s > A7 > A7r.


QuoteQuote:
What will be a decent price point will be determined by what features the camera has. Without knowing the specs, it will be pretty had to speculate on that.
I'm saying they could maintain margins with a full-frame version of the K-3 at $2000, and I think it would sell. After all, a D610/750 is pretty much a D7100 with a full-frame sensor. My suggestion may not be your ideal camera, but it would sell just as readily in its segment as the K-3 does. If their premise is the K-3 makes sense, but a full-frame version at twice the price does not, well, that's not very compelling in my opinion. If it's good enough for Nikon, it should be good enough for Ricoh.


Last edited by bobdobbs; 09-19-2014 at 07:35 PM.
09-19-2014, 07:43 PM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I guess we'll know more whenever we know, and you and I will do whatever we do whenever that is.
Oh that's easy. If they build it and sell it, I'll be first in line to buy one.
09-19-2014, 07:52 PM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by GoremanX Quote
Oh that's easy. If they build it and sell it, I'll be first in line to buy one.


Well, I suppose I'm neither going to get my hopes up nor let past disappointments upset me either. I have a K-3 and a Q7 and a lot of film cameras and a couple dozen lenses that mix and match on any of them (well almost anyway - no adapter to shoot a Q lens on a K-mount camera yet). I know what I should do until next summer.
09-19-2014, 08:07 PM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Read more at: PF Interview with Ricoh Imaging at Photokina 2014 - Photokina 2014 | PentaxForums.com



Absolute hogwash...

If you listen to this guy you'll be using your Pentax glass with no AF or Auto-exposure on your Sony A7 when every Pentax shooter who wishes to do so, will be using their's with full support on a Pentax Full Frame.

Hey, I still may end up with an A7r or no full frame at all. It's only about a 20% increase in resolution going FF over a K-3, nice but not critical. As I said, a Sony A7 would fit in my current camera bag with no modification, and that's a big plus. But if you're going to a Sony, do it for what Sony is as a camera, not based on the notion that Pentax engineering is working on a full frame, but won't release it. That's just nonsense. How many million might they be willing to waste on that kind of insanity?

Here is the part that I don't get:

Pentax: "We aren't showing a FF here. We may in the future, after some marketing study shows it would be a good idea"

How ON EARTH is does this get turned into "FF is coming?" after every freaking trade show?

This is the same line they have taken for years.

There is no FF right now, for sale.

The target market is not defined.

The features are not set.

The product does not exist.

Is there a FF prototype? Sure. Of course. They play around, try features, hire useless design houses to wreck it, and start again.

As for 'wasting millions'? I didn't say that, nor do I think it's either:

a) a waste
b) millions

Please learn to read.

09-19-2014, 08:25 PM - 3 Likes   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
This is the same line they have taken for years.
You're just arguing to be argumentative. This is a different owner. They've said they're going to be the alternative, or third full-line camera maker. They've already done an APSc. They've already done a cropped MF using essentially the same components. Clearly the supposed FF will use essentially the same cmponents as the K-3 and 645Z.

They're releasing clearly FF-capable lenses. They're expanding the APSc line to be a new-buyer attractor and Q line to be a new buyer attractor. They're doing what any serious consumer products company does to develop its products and lines.

They're using different words and doing different things and saying things in a different way than they have for all those past years you referred to. Perhaps you haven't watched and listened long enough to sense the change.

I think they have the camera essentially ready to go. I think now they're arranging the component supplies and the production facility.

The key is, neither of us has any real basis to make informed statements about whether or not they're going to make a FF camera, so why make such a big deal if those of us who think they are going to discuss the changed tone? What difference does it make to you that you have to be right about them NOT making one? What can you possibly get out of insisting I and others like me are wrong? Why are you so certain you know more than experienced interviewers writing articles with a Byline?

Really - what, precisely do you get for making these posts?

Last edited by monochrome; 09-19-2014 at 08:48 PM.
09-19-2014, 09:00 PM   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You're just arguing to be argumentative.
I didn't think so.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
This is a different owner. They've said they're going to be the alternative, or third full-line camera maker. They've already done an APSc. They've already done a cropped MF using essentially the same components. Clearly the supposed FF will use essentially the same cmponents as the K-3 and 645Z.

They're releasing clearly FF-capable lenses. They're expanding the APSc line to be a new-buyer attractor and Q line to be a new buyer attractor. They're doing what any serious consumer products company does to develop its products and lines.

They're using different words and doing different things and saying things in a different way than they have for all those past years you referred to. Perhaps you haven't watched and listened long enough to sense the change.
Possible. I do sense a shift every year or two with respect to their attitude on FF.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I think they have the camera essentially ready to go. I think now they're arranging the component supplies and the production facility.
I wouldn't think so. If they decide to delay 6-9 months, the body becomes fairly outdated. A year and it's basically a boat anchor. I do think they have several prototypes that serve different functions, but I wouldn't expect a high degree of finish to any of them.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The key is, neither of us has any real basis to make informed statements about whether or not they're going to make a FF camera,
Wrong. They SAID they aren't doing it now. This isn't me, this is them.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
so why make such a big deal if those of us who think they are going to discuss the changed tone? What difference does it make to you that you have to be right about them NOT making one?
No difference - and I don't even want to be right about this. I'd like to be wrong, because I'd like to have a Pentax Kmount FF.

But it's amazing how they say one thing, and the forums get lathered up in the opposite direction:

Pentax @ Photokina: We ain't doin' FF!
PentaxForums chatter: FF is coming next year! Yay!!!

I mean really. What do they have to do? Write it in six foot tall pink letters on the side of the trade show?

"PENTAX: NO FF THIS YEAR. MOVE ALONG!"

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
What can you possibly get out of insisting I and others like me are wrong? Why are you so certain you know more than experienced interviewers writing articles with a Byline?

Really - what, precisely do you get for making these posts?
Articles with a byline? Really?

I'm just pointing out the obvious. I get nothing from it, except now, a headache.

They are not selling FF at this time. That's what they said, and that's what they are (not) doing.

I never said I had a crystal ball. I don't know anyone special.

And I'm sure in a while, I think not too long, they will decide to market a FF camera. I'm sure it'll be great.

But it's just astounding when a company says, in the interview, "We are not going to sell FF now." And as if by magic, there is no FF on the trade show floor. What they said and what they did match. No FF. None.

Nada. Zip. Zero.

But yet this forum goes ballistic with "FF next year!"

I used to be in that camp. It's fun. I get it. But for pete's sake, it's been 5-6 years, now, right?

Sure, they had some unmarked lenses with that 'New FF smell' on them. Sure, they said 'We may release FF if the market study is right'.

All they said was basically 'wait and see... and then maybe. or not.'
09-20-2014, 12:10 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
So when they announced the D-FA 100mm macro was it the same an announcing a FF camera? Nobody (Canon, Nikon, Sony) cares if Pentax finally releases a FF body. Nobody is going to change their marketing or development plans because of Ricoh. The only reason for Ricoh to keep quiet is that they have not fully committed to a FF design. Maybe they haven't committed to FF of any kind. They say they are watching the market, so maybe that means they want to see if mirrorless is where they want to invest.

In the current market Ricoh would be better laying out a clear plan if they have one. Look what is happening with Sony A-mount. See what happens when a company starts being secretive?
Future of the Sony A Mount - YouTube

IF Ricohs goal it to create more doubt, they are doing a great job.

That re-release of an existing lens? Maybe they should have renamed it DA but you'd have yelled at their incompetence changing names when the product is the same.
Of course others are watching Ricoh. As much as Canon did small cams. Ya think they just got he idea suddenly or something? Sure.
09-20-2014, 03:16 AM   #68
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
So when they announced the D-FA 100mm macro was it the same an announcing a FF camera? Nobody (Canon, Nikon, Sony) cares if Pentax finally releases a FF body. Nobody is going to change their marketing or development plans because of Ricoh. The only reason for Ricoh to keep quiet is that they have not fully committed to a FF design. Maybe they haven't committed to FF of any kind. They say they are watching the market, so maybe that means they want to see if mirrorless is where they want to invest. .
The new lenses are clearly FF lenses. They have optical stabilization. Both these features are pointless if it was for APS only.....
I said at the release of the first 645 lens with optical stabilization that Pentax would surely make an FF camera with optical stabilization. It is highly unlikely unlikely that Pentax would develop this technology only for use in the 645 line....

09-20-2014, 03:17 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
A year and it's basically a boat anchor.
A year's delay will hardly do that.

Camera life-cycles can be much longer than a year. The Canon 7D was only recently discontinued after 5 years on the market, the Canon 1Dx is over 3 years old and still in production, the D800 was on sale for 2.5 years before being discontinued, the 645D was in production for 4 years. Etc.

Only Sony seems to trash their bodies every 12 months or less nowadays.

It's worth noting that the pace of sensor development is also generally slower than body changes. Sensors can stay viable longer than bodies. Just look at Canon APS-C The 24MP and 36MP Sony FF sensors widely in use at the moment were also all introduced over 2.5 years ago and are still doing a sterling job today, through numerous body revisions.

So if Pentax delays it's FF debut for a while while it tweaks the body tech or other things, the end result will hardly be a boat anchor, even if the delay extends into mid 2015.
09-20-2014, 03:37 AM - 1 Like   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by noser Quote
I didn't think so.



Possible. I do sense a shift every year or two with respect to their attitude on FF.



I wouldn't think so. If they decide to delay 6-9 months, the body becomes fairly outdated. A year and it's basically a boat anchor. I do think they have several prototypes that serve different functions, but I wouldn't expect a high degree of finish to any of them.



Wrong. They SAID they aren't doing it now. This isn't me, this is them.



No difference - and I don't even want to be right about this. I'd like to be wrong, because I'd like to have a Pentax Kmount FF.

But it's amazing how they say one thing, and the forums get lathered up in the opposite direction:

Pentax @ Photokina: We ain't doin' FF!
PentaxForums chatter: FF is coming next year! Yay!!!

I mean really. What do they have to do? Write it in six foot tall pink letters on the side of the trade show?

"PENTAX: NO FF THIS YEAR. MOVE ALONG!"



Articles with a byline? Really?

I'm just pointing out the obvious. I get nothing from it, except now, a headache.

They are not selling FF at this time. That's what they said, and that's what they are (not) doing.

I never said I had a crystal ball. I don't know anyone special.

And I'm sure in a while, I think not too long, they will decide to market a FF camera. I'm sure it'll be great.

But it's just astounding when a company says, in the interview, "We are not going to sell FF now." And as if by magic, there is no FF on the trade show floor. What they said and what they did match. No FF. None.

Nada. Zip. Zero.

But yet this forum goes ballistic with "FF next year!"

I used to be in that camp. It's fun. I get it. But for pete's sake, it's been 5-6 years, now, right?

Sure, they had some unmarked lenses with that 'New FF smell' on them. Sure, they said 'We may release FF if the market study is right'.

All they said was basically 'wait and see... and then maybe. or not.'
Clearly there has been a shift. There is no particular reason for Pentax to design a 70/80-200mm f2.8 lens that is full frame capable if they weren't seriously working on a body to mount it on.

Company line up till now has been "we will make APS-C Equivalent lenses for full frame focal lengths," hence 18-55, 16-50, 50-135, etc.

I don't really care. My K5 II and K3 work fine. I enjoy shooting them. Surely next year Pentax will release something else interesting, full frame or not. In the mean time I'll enjoy taking photos...
09-20-2014, 04:59 AM   #71
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the only sure things we can deduct from announcement on facebook and after seeing two FF lenses prototypes are:
- they work on FF Pentax camera project - physically, there are prototypes, as for camera prototype we can only speculate if there are any or if the pieces are still scattered on the floor or if there is couple of working devices currently under secret testing in area 51.... or the drawings are still in computer memory bank: hasn't been even printed yet.....
- the Pentax stuff, workmen's, development and marketing specialists are fully aware of upcoming FF
- there will be Pentax FF presented - it doesn't imply nota bene if it'll reach the market at all
- there is thousands of people waiting to put a hand on digital Pentax FF camera.... just for entertaining reason - while the number of professional photographers is limited (i'v made a switch two years ago and don't love my current gear as i loved Pentax, its just the tools nothing less nothing more)
- there will be biggest stir in history of Pentax community EVER!!!, ones FF will be released - street riots, colorfull parades, people throwing other brand photographic equipment through the window etc.
this is how i see it.....
09-20-2014, 05:19 AM - 1 Like   #72
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Ricoh will come with a compact FF. Smaller than any of the competition (save A7). It will not compete with the D810, but with the D610/D750 and 6D and A7. It's compactness, unrestrained specs at a more than competitive price will be it's competitive characteristics. Specs like a D750 at the price level of D610 and 6D. (also it will not look like a K-s1 )
09-20-2014, 05:45 AM   #73
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
A year's delay will hardly do that.

Camera life-cycles can be much longer than a year. The Canon 7D was only recently discontinued after 5 years on the market, .
It was said that Canon would never replace the 7D as APS is dead
09-20-2014, 05:47 AM - 1 Like   #74
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Ricoh will come with a compact FF. Smaller than any of the competition (save A7). It will not compete with the D810, but with the D610/D750 and 6D and A7. It's compactness, unrestrained specs at a more than competitive price will be it's competitive characteristics. Specs like a D750 at the price level of D610 and 6D. (also it will not look like a K-s1 )
I don't know. I just think about things.

I think about how the K10D was positioned features / price wise relative to the APSc competition at the time. I think about how the K-3 was positioned features / price wise relative to the APSc competition at the time. I think about how the 645D and 645Z were presented features-wise and priced versus the existing MF devices at the time,

Then I think about how a FF Pentax might be positioned features / price wise relative to the competition at the time it is introduced, if it is introduced. I think about how the apparent lenses might be positioned features / price wise at the time they are introduced (premium lenses will probably be EXPENSIVE!).

I think about what James Malcolm just said about building a product line for low volume, high margin, lower Revenue Dealer business models instead of high volume, low margin, higher Revenue Dealer business models. I think about alternative to instead of competes with.

I think about the K-5II/IIs, then the K-3. I think about, if Ricoh does it, they'll want to do it right or not at all. I think they'll rather wait and do it right than hurry and do it wrong.

Maybe I'm crazy, but putting these hints together doesn't suggest D610 or or even D750 to me.

I don't expect price to be a selling point per se. I expect the value to be a combination of high-spec features at a higher price with the value being better quality and more features per dollar than the competition. I expect the money saved by NOT doing volume-supporting advertising and marketing activities to show up in better features for the dollar. I expect the buyer to be more a discerning user who is 'in the know' and less someone who goes into a camera store and takes a salesman's advice.

I expect there will howls of derision when the price point is revealed.

Buy maybe I'm crazy.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-20-2014 at 07:40 AM.
09-20-2014, 05:56 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
It was said that Canon would never replace the 7D as APS is dead
At least Nikon seems to think so (see the D300s which was never updated).
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