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10-29-2014, 08:35 AM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
A Pentax FF model may be in development but Ricoh's official position is that they are "observing the market".

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago
Yeesh!


February -

April/May

10-29-2014, 08:40 AM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
It's not like we aren't used to it. It's not like they've been a decisive, out front innovative company for the last 40 years. My buddy was showing me images taken with AF at 6 fps on his F4, almost before Pentax had even released an AF camera. The sad thing to me, was that they tried to release an FF, failed and gave up for 10 years. The technical issues they couldn't solve, had been completely resolved 2 years later, the 8 years since then, it's hard to make an excuse for them.

I guess for a lot of us, we are with Pentax because we've grown used to waiting for stuff, that everyone else has, and don't feel any urgency. For guys like me, it's FF, ho hum... I might buy one, I might not... definitely not enough of a concern to change brands for. The question for me is, is Pentax creating that kind of customer among the younger generation.

What demographic is that? IS it the "patient beyond belief", or the "stubborn beyond belief " demographic.
How exactly do you court that demographic? I'm lucky, APS-c is good for me.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 11:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
That was the point.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 08:32 AM ----------



That's a convoluted, misleading, and false statement IMO.
What's your thought process?

Mine would be that the further you project from the optical centre, the more magnified any mis-alignment will be. Do I need to draw a diagram, or can you conceptualize that?

Think of a mis-aligned lens tilting the focal plane. Then picture the focal plane as containing one APS_c sensor inside a full frame sensor. in the area beyond the edges of the APS-c sensor, the effect of mis-alignment will be more pronounced because the light is travelling further from the optical centre of the lens.

Unless of course your lens is designed so that all light comes out of the rear element completely at right angles to the focal plane. I've never seen a lens like that but I suppose it's a theoretical possibility. Naw, it still wouldn't matter. Misalignment will still be more pronounced at the edges.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 10:11 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:56 AM   #738
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Thanks for the links.

Apparently, the chart tells you the percent of camera model owned by FoCal users for a given date - chart making 101 epic fail. And the thickness of the colored band is the percent? Lame! And all I can say to myself while looking at that graph now is what percent of total camera sales are FoCal users.
Not many, I would guess. Obviously D3200 or D5200 users aren't even going to bother, since they can't calibrate their camera anyway. Yet, there are an awful lot of those cameras sold. This graph just says that more full frame users are "power users." If there were a D400, you would probably see more users of that camera calibrating their camera/lenses.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 11:57 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
Depending. There is also more depth of field and so you are less likely to see focus problems. I never see problems with my DA 15, because at least half the time I am shooting at f10 and hyperfocal.
10-29-2014, 09:13 AM   #739
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote

Depending. There is also more depth of field and so you are less likely to see focus problems. I never see problems with my DA 15, because at least half the time I am shooting at f10 and hyperfocal.
Neither do I. Don't think I've ever seen an error with my iphone, either - sometimes massive DOF is your friend

10-29-2014, 10:17 AM   #740
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Well, here is another take on figures. If you take the 33 most popular Nikon DSLR cameras from the Flickr Camera Finder, then 13 per cent of the pictures uploaded and 23 per cent of the daily users are FF. For Canon's top 30 DSLRs, the figures are 18 per cent and 28 per cent respectively. Only rough figures which I may have computed incorrectly of course. There could also be an in-built bias towards APS-C since the figures for picture uploads are historical whereas FF started to become more popular only recently. Canon and Nikon both have three FF DSLRs in the top ten for each brand, with Canon doing especially well with the 5D Mark II and III and the 6D.

I suppose one answer is still the same: the more enthusiast you are, the more you are likely to own an FF camera and have a Flickr account whereas huge numbers of owners of regular APS-C DSLRs may never go near Flickr. Still, the figures do suggest that FF is pretty solid now and here to stay. It's clear that both Canon and Nikon have several very popular FF cameras which chart highly. There can only be more to follow. It's hard to argue against the notion that in order to sell lenses and accessories, a manufacturer needs to mine the enthusiast seam full-on and it has a lot of FF running through it now. There can't be much take-up of all that at the lower levels.
10-29-2014, 10:30 AM   #741
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QuoteQuote:
then 13 per cent of the pictures uploaded and 23 per cent of the daily users are FF. For Canon's top 30 DSLRs, the figures are 18 per cent and 28 per cent respectively.
So, you're saying despite less than 10% DSLR sales, there are 28% uploads to flickr... that's a stat worthy of study in itself... but really not any indication of anything. As secondary evidence, it needs a lot more corroboration.

The best way to know Pentax needs an FF.... their marketing department says so. They get paid to know these things, know the Pentax numbers, and aren't distracted by what may or may not be happening on flickr.

Analyzing flickr uploads is probably means something.. but you'd have to do a lot of research to find out what.

It could easily mean, people who shoot FF are more likely to have a positive opinion of their own pictures (justified or not) and therefore are more likely to share them using a service like flickr. IN fact their are so many permutations of what this information might mean, I'm going to stop here.

My mom liked to shoot slide film so she could show her slides to all of us at once... and talk about them, she had a great Nikon film camera. he fact that she wanted to share them (and talk about them) in no way indicated they were worth sharing, or talking about. it was usually a snooze fest. So... is flickr the new snooze fest?

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 11:08 AM.
10-29-2014, 10:47 AM   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
The best way to know Pentax needs an FF.... their marketing department says so.
+1000
Good onya!
10-29-2014, 11:13 AM   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
So, you're saying despite less than 10% DSLR sales, there are 28% uploads to flickr... that's a stat worthy of study in itself... but really not any indication of anything. As secondary evidence, it needs a lot more corroboration.

The best way to know Pentax needs an FF.... their marketing department says so. They get paid to know these things, know the Pentax numbers, and aren't distracted by what may or may not be happening on flickr.

Analyzing flickr uploads is probably means something.. but you'd have to do a lot of research to find out what.

It could easily mean, people who shoot FF are more likely to have a positive opinion of their own pictures (justified or not) and therefore are more likely to share them using a service like flickr. IN fact their are so many permutations of what this information might mean, I'm going to stop here.

My mom like to shoot slide film so she could show her slides to all of us at once... and talk about them, she had a great Nikon film camera. he fact that she wanted to share them (and talk about them) in no way indicated they were worth sharing, or talking about. it was usually a snooze fest. So... is flickr the new snooze fest?
Flickr is better than nothing since figures are hard to come by, even allowing for your frankly rather boorish reply. And no, I would not myself trust the marketing department of any company anywhere. These fellows are not paid to do what is in my best interests but to maximize their company's profits. Treat with long spoon!


Last edited by mecrox; 10-29-2014 at 11:23 AM.
10-29-2014, 11:20 AM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
My goodness me, you have so many obsessions you could stock a psychiatric safari park with them. Flickr is better than nothing since figures are hard to come by. And no, I would not myself trust the marketing department of any company anywhere. These fellows are not paid to do what is in my best interests but to maximize their company's profits. Treat with long spoon!
I'm afraid that all these numbers tell me nothing, since cameras like the K3 aren't even listed on Flickr.

I would still bet that there are 8 to 9 APS-C cameras sold for every 1 full frame camera. The price differential is such that there are plenty of folks who will buy a 4 or 500 dollar camera (with kit lens), but would go into shock at the concept of a 1500 dollar camera.
10-29-2014, 11:29 AM   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Flickr is better than nothing since figures are hard to come by, even allowing for your frankly rather boorish reply. And no, I would not myself trust the marketing department of any company anywhere. These fellows are not paid to do what is in my best interests but to maximize their company's profits. Treat with long spoon!
As per usual with some, a different perspective leads to name calling.
QuoteQuote:
Flickr is better than nothing since figures are hard to come by,
So if you have misleading information, that's better than no information?

Not in my humble opinion. An open mind is better than fabricated mis-information.

But hey... think what you want.
10-29-2014, 11:30 AM   #746
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I'm afraid that all these numbers tell me nothing, since cameras like the K3 aren't even listed on Flickr.

I would still bet that there are 8 to 9 APS-C cameras sold for every 1 full frame camera. The price differential is such that there are plenty of folks who will buy a 4 or 500 dollar camera (with kit lens), but would go into shock at the concept of a 1500 dollar camera.
That's not the point - going back to what Falconeyes was saying. It's about buyers roughly called "enthusiasts"- that is, those who spend quite a lot of money on equipment by buying all those lenses and accessories as well as the better-specced camera bodies. Folks much further down the scale likely buy very little if anything beyond the lens which came with the camera. Since the lower end of the camera market is falling away gratis smartphones, the logic says a brand needs to attract as many enthusiasts as possible because, as the man said, they are where the money is - and the money which used to be elsewhere is drying up. So what the Flickr figures may well show is that FF is getting a solid hold among enthusiasts, more so than one might suppose, more so that the stock 90/10 figure for APS-C/FF which is often quoted. Or not - it's a matter of interpretation. This is not about the low end of the market. Ricoh has already said it's not really interested in that. It's about how well FF is doing further up the scale.

I know the K3 isn't listed on Flickr. But the Nikon and Canon cameras are. They are the brands with DSLR FF at the moment. The Pentax stats are a tiny speck compared to theirs.

Last edited by mecrox; 10-29-2014 at 11:37 AM.
10-29-2014, 11:46 AM   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That's not the point - going back to what Falconeyes was saying. It's about buyers roughly called "enthusiasts"- that is, those who spend quite a lot of money on equipment by buying all those lenses and accessories as well as the better-specced camera bodies. Folks much further down the scale likely buy very little if anything beyond the lens which came with the camera. Since the lower end of the camera market is falling away gratis smartphones, the logic says a brand needs to attract as many enthusiasts as possible because, as the man said, they are where the money is - and the money which used to be elsewhere is drying up. So what the Flickr figures may well show is that FF is getting a solid hold among enthusiasts, more so than one might suppose, more so that the stock 90/10 figure for APS-C/FF which is often quoted. Or not - it's a matter of interpretation. This is not about the low end of the market. Ricoh has already said it's not really interested in that. It's about how well FF is doing further up the scale.

I know the K3 isn't listed on Flickr. But the Nikon and Canon cameras are. They are the brands with DSLR FF at the moment. The Pentax stats are a tiny speck compared to theirs.
The notion that you can only make money in the camera business selling to enthusiasts needs to be completely kicked in the butt. In actual fact you can lose just as much money targeting enthusiasts as you can any other way.

This analysis completely ignores the additional costs in providing enthusiasts with gear. More inventory, higher cost inventory, less frequency between sales... whether or not Pentax wants to compete in that market, it's not certain that it will be a financial success if they do. It's just as possible that Pentax needs to avoid the FF enthusiast market (because of market dynamics, brand recognition etc.) as it is likely that they can make money in that market.

If it was just "Pentax needs to release an FF to make money" and that was it, I'm sure they would have done it. In fact it's going to be a gamble. The fact that people think one way or the other doesn't make either one of them right. An open mind in the face of the unknowable is a wonderful thing.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 12:11 PM.
10-29-2014, 11:53 AM   #748
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
That's not the point - going back to what Falconeyes was saying. It's about buyers roughly called "enthusiasts"- that is, those who spend quite a lot of money on equipment by buying all those lenses and accessories as well as the better-specced camera bodies. Folks much further down the scale likely buy very little if anything beyond the lens which came with the camera. Since the lower end of the camera market is falling away gratis smartphones, the logic says a brand needs to attract as many enthusiasts as possible because, as the man said, they are where the money is - and the money which used to be elsewhere is drying up. So what the Flickr figures may well show is that FF is getting a solid hold among enthusiasts, more so than one might suppose, more so that the stock 90/10 figure for APS-C/FF which is often quoted. Or not - it's a matter of interpretation. This is not about the low end of the market. Ricoh has already said it's not really interested in that. It's about how well FF is doing further up the scale.

I know the K3 isn't listed on Flickr. But the Nikon and Canon cameras are. They are the brands with DSLR FF at the moment. The Pentax stats are a tiny speck compared to theirs.
I think Ricoh said that they are interested in the full frame market, so not sure what you are saying there.

Flickr stats tell me nothing, I will repeat. Iphones are the most commonly used photographic device for flickr users. Are we going to say that they are also enthusiast cameras? Number one SLR is the Canon T3i? Maybe that's the market Ricoh should target...
10-29-2014, 12:21 PM   #749
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
These fellows are not paid to do what is in my best interests but to maximize their company's profits. Treat with long spoon!
Precisely incorrect, unless it is in your best interest to maximize corporate losses.

If your best interest is a FF camera, for the last decade or so they have been doing precisely what is in your best interest - but you have (apparently) not responded to the signal.
10-29-2014, 01:13 PM   #750
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Number one SLR is the Canon T3i? Maybe that's the market Ricoh should target...
I don't know if you were being sarcastic or not, but i personally do think that is the market Ricoh should target (not THE market but one of the markets). With the discontinuation of the K500, there is a big gaping hole in that price range.
The K-S1 is simply too expensive to capture a big chunk of the entry level DSLR market.
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