[ogl]

There is interesting info...
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/273...nt-system.html

If it will be FF mirrorless, it could change the market radically.

[jcdoss]

It just wouldn't make much sense to have lens with a focal length of 70-200 for APS-C. Ricoh has not identified it as APS-C only or "DA lens," which they have typically done when lenses were for APS-C only. An odd omission if it doesn't mean something more./

They haven't identified it as "70-200" either, have they?

[stevebrot]

Oh, BTW, A7s > A7 > A7r.

A7s > A7r > A7 (price-wise) with the entry point being about $1700 USD body-only for the A7.


Steve

(...always interested in accuracy...)

---------- Post added 09-20-14 at 11:56 AM ----------

I don't expect price to be a selling point per se.

Based on the K-3's price history here in the U.S., it has never been placed as a bargain alternative to a D7100. Rather, it was a few hundred dollars more money and is currently priced at parity. I would expect a release price (should it ever happen) of at least $2100. I would also expect that price to hold for at least nine months after release.


Steve

---------- Post added 09-20-14 at 12:13 PM ----------

There is FA35/2

You beat me to it, but you know the standard answer regarding the FA lenses:

• The don't count
• Old tech
• PF
• Screw drive
• Pentax is dooommed

Never mind that the FA 35/2 was brought back to market by popular demand after being "discontinued" for a couple of years. Desperation, I guess.


Steve

(...no, mine is not for sale and never will be...)

[monochrome]

Based on the K-3's price history here in the U.S., it has never been placed as a bargain alternative to a D7100. Rather, it was a few hundred dollars more money and is currently priced at parity. I would expect a release price (should it ever happen) of at least $2100. I would also expect that price to hold for at least nine months after release.

To which camera do you expect the Unicorn to be an alternative? I expect a higher price point.,

[stevebrot]

To which camera do you expect the Unicorn to be an alternative? I expect a higher price point.,

I don't expect the Unicorn (K-U1 ?) to be more than 24 Mpx in the interest of better high ISO performance. Therefore in the 20 Mpx to 24 Mpx range:

• DX3 $6999
• 5D Mk III $3399
• A99 $2298
• D750 pre-order at $2297 (street price of $2100 by this time next year)
• D610 $1997 (currently discounted to $1797)
• 6D $1899
• A7 $1698

Traditionally Pentax has indexed to the Nikon line. I would suggest the D750 as the target but with one or more distinguishing features to interest potential purchasers of the 5D Mk III or DX3. My introductory price point $2100 is the low end estimate with the upper being about $2300 or $2350. Either way, it would not be an impulse purchase for me and I would seriously consider market alternatives before purchase.


Steve

[Mistral75]

1) The patent for the 70-200/2.8 has been published.
2) The prototypes have three switches. (http://news.ricoh-imaging.co.jp/rim_info/3_telephotozoomlens_photokina2014.jpg)

1) So you are stepping back from "I have seen the construction plan of the 70-200/2.8" to "The patent for the 70-200/2.8 has been published." Fine by me.

I presume you are referring to the Japanese patent No. 2012-189817, filled on 10 March 2011 and granted on 4 April 2012, or its US extension N°US20120229689 filled on 5 March 2012.

Out of the six embodiments included in the patent, one is indeed for a 70-200mm f/2.8 with a 21.64mm image circle's radius, i.e. a 24x36 lens, but the other five are for a 15-45mm f/2.8 (f/2.9 actually) with a 4.65mm image circle's radius, i.e. lenses for a 1/1.7" sensor.

These embodiments correspond to the optical formula of the Q lens named 06 Telephoto Zoom 15-45mm f/2.8 and "common sense" therefore prompts to consider this patent as being that of said Q lens and not of a 70-200mm 24x36 lens.

This patent is of no use for our debate and has no consequence as whether the 70-200ish 'Large Diameter Zoom' a.k.a. '* Tele Zoom' on the roadmap includes SR or not.

2) I am afraid you are making two mistakes there.

The first one is that the picture you are providing a link to is that of the 'High Magnification Super Zoom' a.k.a. 'Tele Zoom' on the roadmap and not that of the 70-200ish 'Large Diameter Zoom' a.k.a. '* Tele Zoom' on the roadmap.

High Magnification Super Zoom a.k.a. Tele Zoom:



Large Diameter Zoom a.k.a. * Tele Zoom:



(click on any of the two pictures to enlarge it)

as evidenced by this picture taken on Ricoh's booth at Photokina by Digital Camera Watch:



The second mistake you are making is that none of these two prototypes / mock-ups have three switches.

The High Magnification Super Zoom a.k.a. Tele Zoom (not the 70-200ish lens we are talking about, but anyway...) has, from top to bottom in the picture above:

- a lock, presumably a zoom lock to prevent zoom creeping
- a push-button, presumably a focus hold button
- and two switches.

The Large Diameter Zoom, the 70-200ish lens we are talking about, the one with the golden ring (star lens), has two switches and that's it.

In short: nothing you have written so far brings any evidence that the 70-200ish lens, a prototype or mock-up of which is currently displayed at Photokina, benefits from optical stabilisation.

[VoiceOfReason]

[Pål Jensen]

In short: nothing you have written so far brings any evidence that the 70-200ish lens, a prototype or mock-up of which is currently displayed at Photokina, benefits from optical stabilisation.

1) The patens show the design of the 70-200 FF lens. It has 20 elements including correcting ones.
2) The image you posted (first one above) clearly show three switches. MF/AF switch, SR on/off, + possibly a focus limiter.
The two side-by-side switches have the same position on both lenses. It is reasonable to assume they serve the same purposes. The third switch on the top image is certainly the MF/AF switch cause it looks identical in design to Pentax MF/AF switches.

[Mistral75]

There is interesting info...
https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/76-non-pentax-cameras-canon-nikon-etc/273...nt-system.html

If it will be FF mirrorless, it could change the market radically.

Actually, that's not exactly the message conveyed by the interview.

Mr Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, managing director of Canon Image Communication Business Division, says they are exploring the possibility of a new mount (distinct from EF, EF-S and EF-M) for a 'new generation' camera system with R&D efforts focussing on a new communication interface between the camera body and lens, new optic design and new sensor design, the goal being to downsize the camera system whilst maintaining an image quality comparable to that of the EF system.

He adds that a high image quality will be very difficult to obtain with a smaller sensor since there is a limit on the number of photons that can be captured per unit area.

The optimal sensor size shall take into account the need to downsize the system whilst maintaining a quality comparable to that of EOS 6D and 5D Mark III with EF lenses today. Improvements in the photoelectric conversion efficiency (sensor, optical design, image processing) could lead to smaller sensors in the future. Determine the optimal solution for sensor size will be a major R&D theme for Canon.

If you read some French, here is a more detailed translation / transcription I wrote earlier today on Chassimages (I am too lazy to translate it into English after having bothered to translate the original Japanese text into French).

L'interviewé, Makoto Sakaeta Masaya, directeur général de la division "Image Communication" de Canon, parle d'une nouvelle monture (autre que EF, EF-S et EF-M) pour des boîtiers les plus compacts possibles.

Voici une transcription en français, tantôt fidèle, tantôt résumée de ses dires à ce propos.

"Une partie de la R&D est consacrée à un système avec une nouvelle monture qui est différent du système à monture EF. (...) Nous étudions quelle pourrait être la plate-forme de nouvelle génération, en termes d'interface de communication entre le boîtier et l'objectif, de conception optique et de conception des capteurs. La raison d'une telle R&D est que la diminution de taille est un des besoins pour les APN. Le système EF, tout particulièrement les objectifs en monture EF, s'attache à fournir la meilleure qualité d'image de tous les temps mais le fait est qu'il y a des appels pour une diminution de taille indépendamment de cette direction [choisie pour le système EF]"

Il parle ensuite du système EF-M / EOS-M dont, tout en maintenant une qualité d'image équivalente à celle du système EF, il leur appartient de "maximiser la portabilité". Le système EOS-M vient de et va bénéficier de la sortie de nouveaux objectifs et, très bientôt, d'un nouveau boîtier, l'accent continuant d'être mis sur l'amélioration de la "portabilité".

(携帯性 signifie portabilité, sachant que sa version raccourcie 携帯 signifie portable au sens de téléphone mobile, donc on a une notion d'objet connecté ici)

Il distingue les efforts de compacité faits à la fois pour les systèmes EF et EF-M d'un côté, les recherches [à plus long terme] sur le "système photo du futur" (aussi entre guillemets dans le texte original : “これからのシステムカメラ”) de l'autre.

L'interviewer lui demande si la solution ne serait pas dans l'utilisation d'une nouvelle monture et d'un capteur plus petit. La réponse de Makoto Sakaeta Masaya est la suivante :

"Une haute qualité [d'image] sera très difficile [à obtenir] avec un [capteur de] petit format car vous êtes limité par la quantité de photons qui peuvent être captés par unité de surface. Dans le futur, en tenant compte de l'amélioration de l'efficacité de la conversion photoélectrique (capteur, conception optique, traitement de l'image), la taille du capteur fera que le système est optimal ou pas. Trouver la solution optimale sera un thème majeur."

L'interviewer lui demande enfin si l'amélioration de la qualité d'image des petits capteurs obtenue grâce à l'amélioration de l'efficacité de la conversion photoélectrique ne pourrait pas faire par exemple du µ4/3 la solution optimale ou bien si ce dernier ne permet pas d'atteindre la "bonne taille" pour un APN à objectifs interchangeables.

La réponse de Makoto Sakaeta Masaya est que Canon pourrait adopter le µ4/3 s'il s'avérait constituer la solution optimale et un bon système pour maximiser la valeur apportée au client mais qu'aujourd'hui l'optimum qualitatif est plutôt du côté des EOS 6D et 5D Mark III et des objectifs EF, même s'il leur faut être capables de diminuer la taille du système dans le futur. La question est de savoir quelle taille [de capteur] permettra de maintenir cette qualité d'image et jusqu'à quel point ils pourront réduire la taille du système. Aujourd'hui, ils n'ont pas pris la décision de lancer un nouveau système bâti autour d'une nouvelle monture et ils continuent d'explorer [les différentes possibilités].

---------- Post added 09-21-2014 at 12:04 AM ----------

1) The patens show the design of the 70-200 FF lens. It has 20 elements including correcting ones.
2) The image you posted (first one above) clearly show three switches. MF/AF switch, SR on/off, + possibly a focus limiter.
The two side-by-side switches have the same position on both lenses. It is reasonable to assume they serve the same purposes. The third switch on the top image is certainly the MF/AF switch cause it looks identical in design to Pentax MF/AF switches.

"The two side-by-side switches have the same position on both lenses. It is reasonable to assume they serve the same purposes."

Indeed and, since they have the same position on DA 560mm f/5.6 too, it is also reasonable to further assume they serve the same purposes as on DA 560mm f/5.6: an AF/MF switch and a focus limiter, as shown below.



I can only state that we are in disagreement. Let's move on. Time will tell.

[Winder]

Just a general post here for the thread and those who disagree. These are my considered opinions, developed from years of reading inside and outside the camera universe and a lifetime of studying businesses. If I was really any good, or really motivated I'd have built and sold one or two businesses by now - but that's for another time.

There is a path for Ricoh. It may be narrow and it may be risky but it is there. What impresses me about their likelihood of success is what they did with office equipment (beginning with paper) over the last sixty years. Office Equipment was one of my father's businesses. Many of the brands they bought were my father's stock-in-trade. I watched it happen, up close and later from the sidelines. Everyone discounted their products and chances way back then, too.

Do not be surprised if Pentax is not the last acquisition Ricoh makes in this business. Do not assume they'll need to purchase components forever.

I don't disagree with what you are saying. My issue with Ricoh is that the market is moving really fast and while Ricoh might be methodical and have a plan, they appear to be moving slow. Up until 3 years ago the DSLR market was a slow, incrementally evolving market. Maybe Ricoh is investing heavily into R&D and they will introduce cutting edge technology. Will that be enough? The Sony AF-D is probably the most advanced AF system on the market. Has it really mattered? Ricoh still appears to be suffering from poor marketing in North America.

Ricoh's purchase of Pentax was announced in the Summer of 2011. Fuji announces the first X-mount camera Spring of 2012 (ships in the Summer). Fuji could give a clinic on marketing and product development. Ricoh should have had a plan going in and Pentax had existing R&D plans in place, so 3 years in and its disappointing to see how little has been done. The K-3 is great, but its just a refined K-5. The HD lenses are just refined DA Limited lenses. The 20-40mm is very well made, but the optical performance relative to price and narrow range/slow aperture are disappointing. I still think the K-3 is the best APS-C body on the market, but at the rate Fuji is progressing I'm not sure the K-3 is going to keep that title for long. The 7DII might take that title, but I don't like the 7D very much.

Ricoh is off to a slow start at a time when the industry is changing faster than it ever has in my lifetime.

I know what you are saying. Ricoh is a big successful company with a lot of resources. Ricoh has a plan. Sony was a bigger company with more resources when it bought Minolta. Sony had big plans too. What will Ricoh do with K-mount to be more successful than A-mount?

[monochrome]

What will Ricoh do with K-mount to be more successful than A-mount?

Tiem will tell. I believe Ricoh has been investing and building the foundation behind the scenes - things we don't see. I believe we're starting to see the things we do see. I believe we'll see things faster and more frequently now.

Maybe they won't succeed or maybe the plan will change or something unexpected will happen - who knows. We'll see when we see (I'm not really concerned about chance, or failure).

Hopefully I'm finished arguing about it and I can just enjoy the show now.

[luftfluss]

Heh. I saw that - or at least a partial quote (Ricoh has a Plan, but . . . . .) [EDIT - Replied!] I stopped using that sig tag. It upset too many people. So far I haven't used 'See? Told 'Ya' but that might be coming.

I actually don't necessarily insist the FF will certainly be released any time soon. nor that I know what their plan is or what the lens roadmap is. My objection is to the howls of derision when it appears, this time, that the tone has changed.

Discussion such as you seem to do is fine - others, not so much. Unfortunately I swallow the bait.

Didn't your infamous () line come around the same time as the Ricoh UPP? Many of us were in a snarly mood at that point.

[monochrome]

Didn't your infamous () line come around the same time as the Ricoh UPP? Many of us were in a snarly mood at that point.

IIRC the timing correctly it first appeared by chance in a Reply in December, 2011. There was word on the street here Ricoh had a plan to hire back engineers, pursue the professional market and compete head-on with Canon and Nikon. I had a few interesting PM's from people who would know what was actually going on.

Then K-01 happened, RIcoh the parent company retrenched and things were set back for a while. I did get some pretty snarky comments about 'The Plan' and 'Happy' the following spring, yeah. But they've seemed to use the retrenchment time to rebuild the foundation and remake the brand according to their standards. We should be happy they did because the alternative would not have been pretty.

I still don't understand the Internet and being personally, negatively invested in a company. Things happen. If you think about why management did what they did and you can see that it fits what they're trying to do - and you appreciate what they're trying to do - you hang in there. If you don't appreciate what they're trying to do you go somewhere else.

Complaining about things you can't control just gives you ulcers or a heart attack. Unless what you really want to do is complain about things you can't control.

[Winder]

I still don't understand the Internet and being personally, negatively invested in a company. Things happen. If you think about why management did what they did and you can see that it fits what they're trying to do - and you appreciate what they're trying to do - you hang in there. If you don't appreciate what they're trying to do you go somewhere else.

Complaining about things you can't control just gives you ulcers or a heart attack. Unless what you really want to do is complain about things you can't control.

I have said the same things about Sony and A-mount that I have said about Ricoh and K-mount. I have used A-mount as an example. I'm not personally invested in either. Probably going to be selling on Pentax body and lens in the very near future. I was originally going to up grade from my Canon 5D original to the A900, but Sony made it apparent they didn't have a solid plan and rumors of the OVF going away kept me with Canon. Sony has repeatedly missed the market and screwed up with their DSLR business.

What exactly are they trying to do? Its hard for me to appreciate what they are trying to do when they keep it a secret. You keep saying you "believe". You seem to be the one personally invested in the future. I only want to figure out what they are going to do so I that if I need to unload my lenses I can still get a premium for them from those who have blind faith.

[monochrome]

They have very clearly stated what they are trying to do. They're doing what they've very clearly stated.