More full-frame smoke, but still no fire, this time from photographyblog

**monochrome** · 09-23-2014, 11:33 AM

Originally posted by normhead

Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the sleeping Giant, sitting on a pile of patents, sitting on years of APS-c, FF and MF know how. Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the only serious threat to the big 2. Once Pentax releases the FF, they'll be the only full service supplier in the industry.. Everything from the Q to MF

IIR all the words C, Jim Malcolm told me Ricoh believes there is room in the market for a third full-range camera brand, it will be Pentax over the intermediate term, and the long-term goal is to be number 1. He told me there will be a Full Frame camera, but to please be patient - there are many things to do first before that is possible. He told me Ricoh is committed to K-mount, Q and 645; that K-mount is the reputation, Q is the growth and 645 is the character. He said that Pentax will be an alternative, not a competitor, to the big 2 brands. He said Ricoh is twice the size of Nikon and half the size of Canon, [ED: not some tiny company in a decrepit office building in suburban Tokyo].

I heard these things with my ears and saw his lips moving with my eyes, live, real-time. Not some YouTube video.

There were half a dozen other PentaxForums members present who will verify every word of what I just wrote.

In a way it is like the Christian church. It is a mystery and one cannot really know the truth. At a point one has to exercise one's free will and make a choice.

One has to choose to believe, and wait; or to be a secular pragmatist and get the hell out. There's really no reason to be here otherwise.

I choose to believe, and I'm waiting.

Last edited by monochrome; 09-23-2014 at 01:07 PM.

Wired · 09-23-2014, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by johnmflores

What I find most interesting about this infatuation with "full frame" is that Fuji doesn't get nearly as much criticism for sticking with a "cropped" sensor as Pentax does. Fuji is a darling of the industry while Pentax is a goat, but suspect that some of that is self-inflicted. If we all just went out into the world, took great photos and shared them proudly as Pentaxicans, without the Full Frame Fever and focusing on what Pentax is versus what it isn't then maybe people might have a more respectful view of the brand.

Pentax is to blame as well, but I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of newbies that come here and are quickly told that the glass is half empty.

The truth is, I'd put my K-3 and DA/FA primes up against any Fuji any day of the week and there'd be nothing in it. But perceptions are stubborn things...

My theory on that matter is the same reason they don't ask of35mm cameras from Oly or Panny either... these three mirrorless movers are focused on smaller compact systems, and their custoemrs understand that. The funny thing about that is that I don't find the Fuji system all that compact. the lenses are just as big if not bigger than those of Pentax's. Just like Sony's A7, the lenses are still large because of the 35mm sensor coverage area.

DSLR makers are expected to make the evolutionary step to a 35mm sensor. I think thats where the expectations with Pentax lie...then the teasing and the now infamous April fools joke.

OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing!

ogl · 09-23-2014, 12:04 PM

Originally posted by normhead

Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the sleeping Giant, sitting on a pile of patents, sitting on years of APS-c, FF and MF know how. Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the only serious threat to the big 2.

Good joke. Outstanding fantasy. Bravo!

mecrox · 09-23-2014, 12:19 PM

"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping goat and fill him with a terrible resolution" as the Admiral didn't say, lol.

So far as I can see, this is shaping up to be a classic match between Japan Inc. and a scratch side from the rest of the world. On the one side we have the sleeping goats of the camera industry, fond of incremental updates and stuff that often doesn't actually work properly without a product recall; and on the other, ROW side we have several veteran player-perfectionists from Germany, a new, young and well-funded midfield from South Korea, a Chinese goalkeeper and some highly unpredictable strikers from Silicon Valley who can win a match one moment and score six own goals the next. Should be a good one. When one looks around the world at who is engaged in the imaging ibiz - Germany, South Korea, China, the USA and so forth - the Japanese camera industry has more formidable opponents than one might think. Maybe we have to go a bit further than thinking moving a dial from one side of a camera to another or changing the sensor format by not that much really matters. For example, knock-out new sensor tech made in South Korea mated to cameras made by a new company in China whose ingenious software is supplied by Silicon Valley - things could change very quickly indeed.

Last edited by mecrox; 09-23-2014 at 01:08 PM.

**monochrome** · 09-23-2014, 12:23 PM

Originally posted by Wired

OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing!

Huh. We just swapped our 2,600 Canon copiers for Ricoh because the Canons were totally dumpster.

Tesla · 09-23-2014, 12:23 PM

For as many posts some of these negative members have, one would wonder why they are here.

Blue · 09-23-2014, 12:31 PM

Originally posted by Tesla

For as many posts some of these negative members have, one would wonder why they are here.

Crazy isn't it? Maybe they can't afford Leica.

bobdobbs · 09-23-2014, 12:33 PM

Originally posted by monochrome

IIR all the words C, Jim Malcolm told me Ricoh believes there is room in the market for a third full-range camera brand, it will be Pentax over the intermediate term, and the long-term goal is to be number 1.

I also wonder if the camera makers see full-frame as being inevitable in the long-term. It seems like Nikon thinks this way, and they are pushing their users into full-frame rather than investing more in DX. Given that a number of DA lenses also offer full-frame coverage (which has to be by design), does Pentax/Ricoh think that way?

I wouldn't be surprised if in the not-so-distant future that APS-C will be viewed as a stopgap measure to bring DSLRs to market, a necessary compromise due to the high cost of large sensors. Once the cost of full-frame sensors comes down drastically (as technology always does), it seems like APS-C DSLRs could (note, I said "could") be viewed as a quaint camera standard that lasted 20 years or so. People will seek them out, possibly because they like some of the things they do differently than a full-frame, or just for nostalgia.

Or maybe people will stop thinking in terms of 35 mm focal lengths, and stop multiplying by 1.5 in their head. i.e., once those of us that once used 35 mm film cameras die off, maybe APS-C is perfectly acceptable. After all, technology generally gets smaller over time, while still outperforming its ancestors.

Has anybody asked the heads of these companies what they think about that?

**jatrax** · 09-23-2014, 12:39 PM

Originally posted by Wired

OH, and unrelated... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recommendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing!

Sorry to hear that. We've had Ricoh machines in our office for 9 years now. Rock solid.

---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 12:50 PM ----------

If the members of this forum actually wanted to support the brand and increase the possibility of getting a FF camera there is a very easy way to do that.

But instead, all we get is "Pentax is Doooomed" and not in a funny way. Posting anything positive about Pentax or gasp, Ricoh results in a virtual piling on of denial. Ricoh can do nothing right, all Pentax cameras are flawed. Ricoh is a bunch of liars, etc, etc. One would think this forum is dedicated to the destruction of Pentax rather than it's support. One wonders if many of the posters here actually even own any Pentax gear. One wonders if many of the names here are not wheat low in disguise. One wonders why one even bothers to read all the drivel and doesn't just go out and take pictures with perfectly good gear. One wonders if many posters here even take pictures, or are just here to complain about Pentax.

And the easy way to get a FF camera? If every person on this forum went out and demonstrated a Pentax camera to a potential customer once per month, yes once per month, we would sell for Ricoh 750,000 cameras annually, just from our own efforts. Instead we find nothing but posts that would drive potential customers as far away as possible.

Clavius · 09-23-2014, 12:50 PM

Originally posted by Wired

OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing!

Huh? No way, they're the best.

thibs · 09-23-2014, 12:58 PM

Well our Xerox machines are pile of c**p.
Our Ricohs (from memory, MP2800, MP2050 and a bunch of MP171spf) are quite sturdy.
The GUI if we can call it that is c**p and really hard to setup when not used to that type of machines.
But once configured, rock solid, indeed (with a couple annoying things like, difficulty to print from a MAC when the machine hasn't the Postscript update card etc.)

NicoleC · 09-23-2014, 01:11 PM

Originally posted by bobdobbs

I also wonder if the camera makers see full-frame as being inevitable in the long-term. ...

I wouldn't be surprised if in the not-so-distant future that APS-C will be viewed as a stopgap measure to bring DSLRs to market, a necessary compromise due to the high cost of large sensors.

Considering the higher end Lumia cell phones already rival P&S cameras for sensor size and quality, if smartphones continue to improve I suspect in a few years (say 5-20) the only dedicated camera market left will be users who "need" specific kinds of lenses (ex: macro) or demand the top quality, and top quality will have to be served with sensor sizes to big to be packed into a usable sized cell phone.

Oh course, by then cell phones could be passé and people have brain implants instead. Predicting the future is sketchy work.

Not a Number · 09-23-2014, 01:18 PM

Originally posted by NicoleC

Oh course, by then cell phones could be passé and people have brain implants instead. Predicting the future is sketchy work.

From "The President's Analyst" 1967

You Tube

**monochrome** · 09-23-2014, 01:36 PM

Originally posted by NicoleC

Oh course, by then cell phones could be passé and people have brain implants instead. Predicting the future is sketchy work.

By then I'll be dead and my children can fight over (who has to take) my K-mounts (to the dumpster).

Mistral75 · 09-23-2014, 01:39 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by monochrome

(...)

In a way it is like the Christian church. It is a mystery and one cannot really know the truth. At a point one has to exercise one's free will and make a choice.

One has to choose to believe, and wait; or to be a secular pragmatist and get the hell out. There's really no reason to be here otherwise.

I choose to believe, and I'm waiting.

Credo quia absurdum.

09-23-2014, 11:42 AM	#242
Wired Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Edmonton, AB Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 2,519	Originally posted by johnmflores What I find most interesting about this infatuation with "full frame" is that Fuji doesn't get nearly as much criticism for sticking with a "cropped" sensor as Pentax does. Fuji is a darling of the industry while Pentax is a goat, but suspect that some of that is self-inflicted. If we all just went out into the world, took great photos and shared them proudly as Pentaxicans, without the Full Frame Fever and focusing on what Pentax is versus what it isn't then maybe people might have a more respectful view of the brand. Pentax is to blame as well, but I don't have enough fingers and toes to count the number of newbies that come here and are quickly told that the glass is half empty. The truth is, I'd put my K-3 and DA/FA primes up against any Fuji any day of the week and there'd be nothing in it. But perceptions are stubborn things... My theory on that matter is the same reason they don't ask of35mm cameras from Oly or Panny either... these three mirrorless movers are focused on smaller compact systems, and their custoemrs understand that. The funny thing about that is that I don't find the Fuji system all that compact. the lenses are just as big if not bigger than those of Pentax's. Just like Sony's A7, the lenses are still large because of the 35mm sensor coverage area. DSLR makers are expected to make the evolutionary step to a 35mm sensor. I think thats where the expectations with Pentax lie...then the teasing and the now infamous April fools joke. OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing! Last edited by Wired; 09-23-2014 at 11:48 AM.

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09-23-2014, 11:33 AM	#241
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by normhead Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the sleeping Giant, sitting on a pile of patents, sitting on years of APS-c, FF and MF know how. Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the only serious threat to the big 2. Once Pentax releases the FF, they'll be the only full service supplier in the industry.. Everything from the Q to MF IIR all the words C, Jim Malcolm told me Ricoh believes there is room in the market for a third full-range camera brand, it will be Pentax over the intermediate term, and the long-term goal is to be number 1. *He told me there will be* a Full Frame camera, but to please be patient - there are many things to do first before that is possible*. He told me Ricoh is committed to K-mount, Q and 645; that K-mount is the reputation, Q is the growth and 645 is the character. He said that Pentax will be an alternative, not a competitor, to the big 2 brands. He said Ricoh is twice the size of Nikon and half the size of Canon, [ED: not some tiny company in a decrepit office building in suburban Tokyo]. I heard these things with my ears and saw his lips moving with my eyes, live, real-time. Not some YouTube video. There were half a dozen other PentaxForums members present who will verify every word of what I just wrote. In a way it is like the Christian church. It is a mystery and one cannot really know the truth. At a point one has to exercise one's free will and make a choice. One has to choose to believe, and wait; or to be a secular pragmatist and get the hell out. There's really no reason to be here otherwise. I choose to believe, and I'm waiting. Last edited by monochrome; 09-23-2014 at 01:07 PM.*

09-23-2014, 12:04 PM	#243
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by normhead Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the sleeping Giant, sitting on a pile of patents, sitting on years of APS-c, FF and MF know how. Pentax is the goat, because Pentax is the only serious threat to the big 2. Good joke. Outstanding fantasy. Bravo!

09-23-2014, 12:19 PM	#244
mecrox Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Oxford, UK Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,375	"I fear all we have done is to awaken a sleeping goat and fill him with a terrible resolution" as the Admiral didn't say, lol. So far as I can see, this is shaping up to be a classic match between Japan Inc. and a scratch side from the rest of the world. On the one side we have the sleeping goats of the camera industry, fond of incremental updates and stuff that often doesn't actually work properly without a product recall; and on the other, ROW side we have several veteran player-perfectionists from Germany, a new, young and well-funded midfield from South Korea, a Chinese goalkeeper and some highly unpredictable strikers from Silicon Valley who can win a match one moment and score six own goals the next. Should be a good one. When one looks around the world at who is engaged in the imaging ibiz - Germany, South Korea, China, the USA and so forth - the Japanese camera industry has more formidable opponents than one might think. Maybe we have to go a bit further than thinking moving a dial from one side of a camera to another or changing the sensor format by not that much really matters. For example, knock-out new sensor tech made in South Korea mated to cameras made by a new company in China whose ingenious software is supplied by Silicon Valley - things could change very quickly indeed. Last edited by mecrox; 09-23-2014 at 01:08 PM.

09-23-2014, 12:23 PM	#245
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Wired OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing! Huh. We just swapped our 2,600 Canon copiers for Ricoh because the Canons were totally dumpster.

09-23-2014, 12:23 PM	#246
Tesla Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Washington State Posts: 589	For as many posts some of these negative members have, one would wonder why they are here.

09-23-2014, 12:31 PM	#247
Blue Moderator Site Supporter Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: Florida Hill Country Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 17,377	Originally posted by Tesla For as many posts some of these negative members have, one would wonder why they are here. Crazy isn't it? Maybe they can't afford Leica.

09-23-2014, 12:33 PM	#248
bobdobbs Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Location: Saigon Posts: 92 Original Poster	Originally posted by monochrome IIR all the words C, Jim Malcolm told me Ricoh believes there is room in the market for a third full-range camera brand, it will be Pentax over the intermediate term, and the long-term goal is to be number 1. I also wonder if the camera makers see full-frame as being inevitable in the long-term. It seems like Nikon thinks this way, and they are pushing their users into full-frame rather than investing more in DX. Given that a number of DA lenses also offer full-frame coverage (which has to be by design), does Pentax/Ricoh think that way? I wouldn't be surprised if in the not-so-distant future that APS-C will be viewed as a stopgap measure to bring DSLRs to market, a necessary compromise due to the high cost of large sensors. Once the cost of full-frame sensors comes down drastically (as technology always does), it seems like APS-C DSLRs could (note, I said "could") be viewed as a quaint camera standard that lasted 20 years or so. People will seek them out, possibly because they like some of the things they do differently than a full-frame, or just for nostalgia. Or maybe people will stop thinking in terms of 35 mm focal lengths, and stop multiplying by 1.5 in their head. i.e., once those of us that once used 35 mm film cameras die off, maybe APS-C is perfectly acceptable. After all, technology generally gets smaller over time, while still outperforming its ancestors. Has anybody asked the heads of these companies what they think about that?

09-23-2014, 12:39 PM	#249
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by Wired OH, and unrelated... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recommendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing! Sorry to hear that. We've had Ricoh machines in our office for 9 years now. Rock solid. ---------- Post added 09-23-14 at 12:50 PM ---------- If the members of this forum actually wanted to support the brand and increase the possibility of getting a FF camera there is a very easy way to do that. But instead, all we get is "Pentax is Doooomed" and not in a funny way. Posting anything positive about Pentax or gasp, Ricoh results in a virtual piling on of denial. Ricoh can do nothing right, all Pentax cameras are flawed. Ricoh is a bunch of liars, etc, etc. One would think this forum is dedicated to the destruction of Pentax rather than it's support. One wonders if many of the posters here actually even own any Pentax gear. One wonders if many of the names here are not wheat low in disguise. One wonders why one even bothers to read all the drivel and doesn't just go out and take pictures with perfectly good gear. One wonders if many posters here even take pictures, or are just here to complain about Pentax. And the easy way to get a FF camera? If every person on this forum went out and demonstrated a Pentax camera to a potential customer once per month, yes once per month, we would sell for Ricoh 750,000 cameras annually, just from our own efforts. Instead we find nothing but posts that would drive potential customers as far away as possible.

09-23-2014, 12:50 PM	#250
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by Wired OH, and unrealted... my office just got a Ricoh copier... not at my recomendation trust me... what a POS. hate this thing! Huh? No way, they're the best.

09-23-2014, 12:58 PM	#251
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Well our Xerox machines are pile of cp. Our Ricohs (from memory, MP2800, MP2050 and a bunch of MP171spf) are quite sturdy. The GUI if we can call it that is cp and really hard to setup when not used to that type of machines. But once configured, rock solid, indeed (with a couple annoying things like, difficulty to print from a MAC when the machine hasn't the Postscript update card etc.)

09-23-2014, 01:11 PM	#252
NicoleC Veteran Member Join Date: Oct 2013 Location: Madison, AL Posts: 448	Originally posted by bobdobbs I also wonder if the camera makers see full-frame as being inevitable in the long-term. ... I wouldn't be surprised if in the not-so-distant future that APS-C will be viewed as a stopgap measure to bring DSLRs to market, a necessary compromise due to the high cost of large sensors. Considering the higher end Lumia cell phones already rival P&S cameras for sensor size and quality, if smartphones continue to improve I suspect in a few years (say 5-20) the only dedicated camera market left will be users who "need" specific kinds of lenses (ex: macro) or demand the top quality, and top quality will have to be served with sensor sizes to big to be packed into a usable sized cell phone. Oh course, by then cell phones could be passé and people have brain implants instead. Predicting the future is sketchy work.

09-23-2014, 01:36 PM	#254
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by NicoleC Oh course, by then cell phones could be passé and people have brain implants instead. Predicting the future is sketchy work. By then I'll be dead and my children can fight over (who has to take) my K-mounts (to the dumpster).

09-23-2014, 01:39 PM - 1 Like	#255
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by monochrome (...) In a way it is like the Christian church. It is a mystery and one cannot really know the truth. At a point one has to exercise one's free will and make a choice. One has to choose to believe, and wait; or to be a secular pragmatist and get the hell out. There's really no reason to be here otherwise. I choose to believe, and I'm waiting. Credo quia absurdum.