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10-29-2014, 05:56 AM   #721
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Percent vs Gregorian Date?

Percent of what? Percent of people who bought the software actually using it or percent of sales of a camera model using the software? Can't be sales of units because the D7000, D7100 and Df says 100% at times

10-29-2014, 06:06 AM   #722
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Percent vs Gregorian Date?

Percent of what? Percent of people who bought the software actually using it or percent of sales of a camera model using the software? Can't be sales of units because the D7000, D7100 and Df says 100% at times
There seems to be more info and charts if you go to the company's blog posts detailing all this.

Reikan FoCal Nikon Stats
Reikan FoCal Canon Stats

The pie charts are perhaps clearer. The Canon pie charts, for example, show that the 6D is pretty popular. I guess one question not answered is how popular lower-end FF really is. It might be that people prefer functionality and build quality first, so they stay put on high-end APS-C if they cannot afford to go higher, but if they can afford to then they jump right over cameras like the 6D or the D610 and go for the full-fat FF ones. Just speculating.

--

Last edited by mecrox; 10-29-2014 at 06:22 AM.
10-29-2014, 06:23 AM   #723
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I'm not sure what we're seeing there... that the D8xx family desperately needs focus calibration? That its owners are very demanding?
But I know what we're not seeing, and it's pretty obvious: an indication about APS/FF relative market share.
10-29-2014, 07:03 AM   #724
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't want to hijack the thread or divert the topic away from Pentax. But the following data may be interesting towards the question how important FF is within the DSLR world now. As this data cannot (yet) come from Pentax, I think the following may apply to this thread.

Reikan FoCal, a computerized tool to fine tune AF calibration for Nikon and other vendors, has published the usage proportions by camera for its tool.

It is a safe assumption that only enthusiast and pro photographers (like wedding etc.) care enough for AF fine tuning to purchase and use said tool. Therefore IMHO, the usage proportion is a good measure for FF adoption among enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world.

This is the graph:


The top two bands (orange and gray) and bottom two bands (light blue and orange again) are APSC (D300/D300S/D7000/D7100) and together amount for roughly 20%, about 80% being FF.

With the D800 being over-represented because of its notorious left AF point issue, one may still say that maybe 2/3 of enthusiast and pro photographers in the Nikon world use FF, partly or exclusively. E.g., there already seem to be twice as many D810 than D7100 users.

One may of course argue that FF users shell out more money to buy said tool. But the same holds true for lenses and accessories, meaning the direct and indirect business revenue charts by camera model within Nikon corporation will likely look the same as above graph!

This leaves the entry level market (D3xxx and D5xxx series which runs between $500 and $750) as the only one left for APSC, with little or no indirect sales triggered by it. And this segment already sees stiff competition from mirrorless and enthusiast compacts.

I think this leaves no options for what Pentax has to do next ...
AN interesting speculation, but unless you're interested in this software, too many unsupported assumptions for me. According to these graphs, Pentax doesn't exist. I'd be interested in a little more rigorous exploration of exactly what demographic their customers represent.

You do know that the Pentax FF is in engineering at the moment? It's kind of like you saying they have to do what they're doing.

QuoteQuote:
This leaves the entry level market (D3xxx and D5xxx series which runs between $500 and $750) as the only one left for APSC, with little or no indirect sales triggered by it. And this segment already sees stiff competition from mirrorless and enthusiast compacts.
I don't even know where that came from. What leaves the entry level market as the only one left for APS-c?

Not every piece of software I've bought turned out to be useful, or even what it said it was. Most companies, their demographics is people they've convinced to buy their product. Assumptions about whether their product actually does anything useful or if their customers even needed to buy their product are completely unwarranted. It's quite possible that their whole demographic consists of folks who bought their advertising hype. I n marketing driven economy, having sales is not predicted on the necessity of having something useful to sell. You only have to convince folks you do.


Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 07:38 AM.
10-29-2014, 07:32 AM   #725
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Fo-Cal users are not exactly a representative slice of market share...its going to skew a ton towards the enthusiast and professional level cameras.
10-29-2014, 07:35 AM   #726
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You do know that the Pentax FF is in engineering at the moment? It's kind of like you saying they have to do what they're doing.
A Pentax FF model may be in development but Ricoh's official position is that they are "observing the market".

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
10-29-2014, 08:01 AM   #727
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QuoteQuote:
Reikan FoCal, a computerized tool to fine tune AF calibration for Nikon and other vendors, has published the usage proportions by camera for its tool.
This brings up another issue.

The two Nikon D810 shooter I took out on trip this year, were totally caught up in trying different techniques to stabilize their cameras. I on he other hand ended up without a functional tripod and had to shoot everything hand held. In the end, my images were very similar to theirs, when there was a difference, mine were better. The question this poses to me, is, does this represent the number of people who upgrade to hi-res cameras, but are still disappointed in their images. In fact of the ones we viewed, on their screens, many were noticeably soft, compared to my K-3 images. So my wonder is, what is it about Nikon D800s and D810s, that causes so many soft images, even when tripod mounted, using mirror lock up and remote releases? And is that what is triggering the sales of this type of software? It seemed, listening to these guys that this was a well known issue in the Nikon community. One of them even had a gerry rigged remote trigger thingy that was supposed to help him stabilize his camera for landscapes.

I think people are being disappointed by their results , in part caused by resolution hype and the promise of better images through more resolution. At least that's what I observed. Watching the two of them sit there, and discuss their lack of results and what was going wrong...I've never experienced what they were going through. And that is the only context I have that helps this software make any sense at all to me.

Pentax has said the FF is in engineering. Their plan is clear. The K-3 was first. They went from that to the 645z, now they are working on the FF. That people are able to misrepresent what they've said, well, a reflection on those people, not Pentax.


Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 08:11 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:03 AM   #728
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Skating to where the puck was a few moments ago

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 09:07 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I don't want to hijack the thread or divert the topic away from Pentax. But the following data ...
Fox News Conclusion: FULL FRAME REQUIRES MORE FOCUS TUNING!

10-29-2014, 08:14 AM   #729
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 09:07 AM ----------



Fox News Conclusion: FULL FRAME REQUIRES MORE FOCUS TUNING!

Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh

Of course the alignment of the focal plane of the elements within the lenses within the barrel is also going to be critical, and I'm not sure software can help you with that. Something to investigate.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 08:26 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:24 AM   #730
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
10-29-2014, 08:30 AM   #731
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
Fo-Cal users are not exactly a representative slice of market share...its going to skew a ton towards
a slice of
QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
the enthusiast and professional level cameras.
that has a certain set of needs.
10-29-2014, 08:30 AM   #732
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QuoteOriginally posted by y0chang Quote
skew a ton towards the enthusiast and professional level cameras.
That was the point.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 08:32 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Way too obvious if you think about it for half a second...You're projecting further from the optical centre of the lens.. of course the tuning is more critical. duh
That's a convoluted, misleading, and false statement IMO.
10-29-2014, 08:35 AM   #733
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
A Pentax FF model may be in development but Ricoh's official position is that they are "observing the market".

What falconeye is saying is that it is high time to stop observing the market but release the FF model.
QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
+1

And when you consider the lead time required for lens development and the sales lost in the interim, that time was perhaps two or three years ago
Yeesh!


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10-29-2014, 08:40 AM   #734
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QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
It's not like we aren't used to it. It's not like they've been a decisive, out front innovative company for the last 40 years. My buddy was showing me images taken with AF at 6 fps on his F4, almost before Pentax had even released an AF camera. The sad thing to me, was that they tried to release an FF, failed and gave up for 10 years. The technical issues they couldn't solve, had been completely resolved 2 years later, the 8 years since then, it's hard to make an excuse for them.

I guess for a lot of us, we are with Pentax because we've grown used to waiting for stuff, that everyone else has, and don't feel any urgency. For guys like me, it's FF, ho hum... I might buy one, I might not... definitely not enough of a concern to change brands for. The question for me is, is Pentax creating that kind of customer among the younger generation.

What demographic is that? IS it the "patient beyond belief", or the "stubborn beyond belief " demographic.
How exactly do you court that demographic? I'm lucky, APS-c is good for me.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 11:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by ElJamoquio Quote
That was the point.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 08:32 AM ----------



That's a convoluted, misleading, and false statement IMO.
What's your thought process?

Mine would be that the further you project from the optical centre, the more magnified any mis-alignment will be. Do I need to draw a diagram, or can you conceptualize that?

Think of a mis-aligned lens tilting the focal plane. Then picture the focal plane as containing one APS_c sensor inside a full frame sensor. in the area beyond the edges of the APS-c sensor, the effect of mis-alignment will be more pronounced because the light is travelling further from the optical centre of the lens.

Unless of course your lens is designed so that all light comes out of the rear element completely at right angles to the focal plane. I've never seen a lens like that but I suppose it's a theoretical possibility. Naw, it still wouldn't matter. Misalignment will still be more pronounced at the edges.

Last edited by normhead; 10-29-2014 at 10:11 AM.
10-29-2014, 08:56 AM   #735
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QuoteOriginally posted by tuco Quote
Thanks for the links.

Apparently, the chart tells you the percent of camera model owned by FoCal users for a given date - chart making 101 epic fail. And the thickness of the colored band is the percent? Lame! And all I can say to myself while looking at that graph now is what percent of total camera sales are FoCal users.
Not many, I would guess. Obviously D3200 or D5200 users aren't even going to bother, since they can't calibrate their camera anyway. Yet, there are an awful lot of those cameras sold. This graph just says that more full frame users are "power users." If there were a D400, you would probably see more users of that camera calibrating their camera/lenses.

---------- Post added 10-29-14 at 11:57 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jsherman999 Quote
Focus errors are usually more clearly seen on aps-c (same # of pixels) because the same image is magnified more.

At any rate I do think the D800 left AF-point issue is clearly seen here.

This also highlights another peripheral purchase (SW) largely made by FF shooters - a snapshot into a demographic Pentax is still, for some reason, waffling on.
Depending. There is also more depth of field and so you are less likely to see focus problems. I never see problems with my DA 15, because at least half the time I am shooting at f10 and hyperfocal.
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