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09-22-2014, 05:17 AM   #46
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Not the same effort, as already stated Pentax has been a player in MF since film days and unlike the FF market they already have a digital MF camera. No idea how you can say 'better ROI'? Sorry, that makes no sense. First you have no way of knowing that, and second as already stated Pentax has been a player in MF since film days and unlike the FF market they already have a digital MF camera. So they are not starting from nothing.

And perhaps more important, even if they released a new magical FF camera tomorrow with accompanying lenses they will still be 4th or 5th and an also ran in that market. In MF they have the opportunity to be number one and dominate the market. Canon, Nikon, Sony, Fuji are not in that market, Pentax is. Dropping everything to get 645z and lenses out the door was IMHO, absolutely brilliant.
A strategic move that:
  • Protected their existing MF market from potential entry by competitors
  • Gives them a Halo product that generates buzz in an area no one else is at
  • Generates enormous profit, while cutting the competition by 2/3 or more.
  • Gets lots of publicity in a professional area that purchases high end expensive gear
  • Gives their range a breadth no one else can, (once they add the FF next year), q to MF
  • Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day if they want
And apparently some other folks think it was a good idea as well, since entire first year production is sold and current wait time is 3 to 4 weeks to take delivery of one.
According to a recent CNET article, only 0.12% of professional photographers use medium format now. I don't see how any of your listed achievements can be realized considering the market is so microscopic.

09-22-2014, 08:56 AM   #47
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
According to a recent CNET article, only 0.12% of professional photographers use medium format now. I don't see how any of your listed achievements can be realized considering the market is so microscopic.
Well you are welcome to your opinion. Just re-read my statements and I'll stand by them. I honestly don't see how all of my achievements cannot be realized. None of them have anything to do with the size of the market, so your .12% is completely irrelevant. Take the first statement for example: "Protected their existing MF market..." Would you explain how releasing the 645z before anyone else entered the MF did not achieve that goal? By releasing the 645z and lenses they are now in the position in MF that Canon and Nikon are in FF, dominating the market.
09-22-2014, 09:29 AM   #48
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Well you are welcome to your opinion. Just re-read my statements and I'll stand by them. I honestly don't see how all of my achievements cannot be realized. None of them have anything to do with the size of the market, so your .12% is completely irrelevant. Take the first statement for example: "Protected their existing MF market..." Would you explain how releasing the 645z before anyone else entered the MF did not achieve that goal? By releasing the 645z and lenses they are now in the position in MF that Canon and Nikon are in FF, dominating the market.
Protected their existing MF market from potential entry by competitors -- OK, I agree on this one
Gives them a Halo product that generates buzz in an area no one else is at -- What's the value of generating buzz in a market that's virtually non-existent?
Generates enormous profit, while cutting the competition by 2/3 or more. -- Enormous profit in a market that barely exists? How?
Gets lots of publicity in a professional area that purchases high end expensive gear -- They don't purchase MF gear
Gives their range a breadth no one else can, (once they add the FF next year), q to MF -- How do you generate value from such a range?
Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day if they want -- For a studio setting... yes. For everything else, probably not.
09-22-2014, 09:38 AM   #49
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QuoteOriginally posted by GlassJunkie Quote
Being the geek that I am, sitting with calipers on the screen and my existing K-mount lenses.... Looks like the new long Tele Zoom will be 9.35 cm wide and 26.3 CM Long (not including mount)... Front element at 82mm, suggests 135-450 F 5.x-6.3 to me in that 10.4" could operate shorter than 150.... Maybe PTX will try for a F4.x on the short end. The Photography Blog pics gave the best pics to interpolate from...

---------- Post added 09-22-14 at 07:03 AM ----------



You may be right... But, I think next SAFOX will have more points, but still be slower due to low light capability. Might be a good design to have a "tunable"... low light setting may be slower, but some will want it. Sports/Birdies may want faster, but willing to sacrifice the low end. The SAFOX seems to "hunt" more than the Nikon/Canon offerings, but appears to be significantly sharper in low light. I confirmed this talking to a diehard FF Nikon glasser last week...
QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
At 82mm frontal lens it could be a 135-450mm F4-5.6
There is quite a bit of difference here ... I would be happy to see F4-5.6 rather than F5.X-6.3

---------- Post added 09-22-14 at 12:40 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
The three lenses in the display case were:-
New Kit APS-c Upgrade lens 16-85 f3.5-5.6 WR, looks like it is finished and scheduled for production. due end of year, start of next. Cost ? my guess $600-800, but discounted with camera kit.
New ~70-200 f2.8? Star quality lens Likely FF compatible pre production. Expect end Q1 2015 earliest Cost ? my guess $1700-2200
New ~135-400 f? likely similar quality spec to cannon 100-400 f4-5.6L although we don't know. expected as above, Cost ? my guess $2000-2500
All three are on the roadmap.
Only thing left on roadmap is Aps-C Ultrawide zoom, presumably WR.
The 135-400 would be right there in my choices of "long glass".
Paired with the HD 1.4X teleconverter ... could work out to be a game changer for me.

09-22-2014, 09:55 AM   #50
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
There is quite a bit of difference here ... I would be happy to see F4-5.6 rather than F5.X-6.3
Evidently, I can't say for sure that will be F4-5.6, but anyway, is good that a long tele zoom, and hopefully, a very good one is coming.
09-22-2014, 10:02 AM - 1 Like   #51
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Protected their existing MF market from potential entry by competitors -- OK, I agree on this one
Yeh!
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Gives them a Halo product that generates buzz in an area no one else is at -- What's the value of generating buzz in a market that's virtually non-existent?
No magazine or website can compare them to anything else. If the 645z gets mentioned it is the #1 in that category. It generates mentions of the word 'Pentax' and at this point brand awareness and media attention are priceless. It establishes them at the high end of the market with a product the others cannot touch. Classic product positioning. Very few people buy the high end product but they like to be associated with a brand that offers that.
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Generates enormous profit, while cutting the competition by 2/3 or more. -- Enormous profit in a market that barely exists? How?
You did notice the price of the camera and the lenses, right? And you did notice the entire first year production is sold? With a 4 week waiting period?
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Gets lots of publicity in a professional area that purchases high end expensive gear -- They don't purchase MF gear
You have that reversed, I meant they are generating lots of publicity in the MF market, a segment that does buy high end gear. And they buy other gear as well. But even if we consider your definition do you really think a D810 shooter who bought that camera because it was highest dynamic range and megapixels available would not consider a 645z for the same reason? Not dedicated Nikon shooters, photographers who actually buy based on results not the name on the front. I know two high end landscape shooters that moved from 5dmkII to D810 just because of the megapixels. Both are considering the 645z as their next step up.
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Gives their range a breadth no one else can, (once they add the FF next year), q to MF -- How do you generate value from such a range?
Who said anything about value? I didn't. I said they will have a breadth of range no one else does. if their marketing department cannot capitalize on that, shame on them.
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day if they want -- For a studio setting... yes. For everything else, probably not.
You did not read what I wrote. I said that marketing can have a field day embarrassing the D810. Marketing has nothing to do with reality. I expected someone to take issue with that one. Of course the D810 would be easier to carry and many other things, but if you are putting together a marketing piece you just pick the features you want to use to make your 'stuff' look better than the other guys 'stuff'. Marketing 101. And the 645z "Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day"

I get you are disappointed that we got a 645z instead of a FF camera. But from a strategic viewpoint making a splash in MF was brilliant. They have a market there to protect and improve, they have no FF market so they will be starting from scratch whether it is released this year or next year or 5 years from now.
09-22-2014, 10:16 AM   #52
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Protected their existing MF market from potential entry by competitors -- OK, I agree on this one
Gives them a Halo product that generates buzz in an area no one else is at -- What's the value of generating buzz in a market that's virtually non-existent?
Generates enormous profit, while cutting the competition by 2/3 or more. -- Enormous profit in a market that barely exists? How?
Gets lots of publicity in a professional area that purchases high end expensive gear -- They don't purchase MF gear
Gives their range a breadth no one else can, (once they add the FF next year), q to MF -- How do you generate value from such a range?
Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day if they want -- For a studio setting... yes. For everything else, probably not.
I don't expect any new entrants in the MF market, definitely not Canikon for which the market is way too small.
Marketing buzz is not restricted to the MF market.
I'm not sure if the profit is enormous or not, but each 645z is getting them 8 times the revenue compared to the K-mount flagship (I bet it doesn't cost 8 times to make). In any case I'd say it's significant (don't forget Ricoh Imaging is a small company).
If the pros are not purchasing MF gear, please explain PhaseOne/Hasselblad's network of dealers.

I don't understand how could any of us having something against Pentax being on the MF market. It's their easiest place to be, where competitiveness is pretty much guaranteed, their "big fish in a small pond" strategy. And the 645z is a success, how is that bad?
09-22-2014, 10:22 AM   #53
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Protected their existing MF market from potential entry by competitors -- OK, I agree on this one
Gives them a Halo product that generates buzz in an area no one else is at -- What's the value of generating buzz in a market that's virtually non-existent?
Since when the buzz does stop at the designed market? If that was true, Canikon FF would have NO influence on APS sales. We know this is wrong (very wrong even).

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Generates enormous profit, while cutting the competition by 2/3 or more. -- Enormous profit in a market that barely exists? How?
You didn't get, that's all. Pentax does reuse all the tech from K-3 into the 645Z but body and sensor. Nobody else does. That's also why their AF coverage is small (if not ridiculous) but MF market doesn't care. Pentax AF in MF market is sensational LOL. Economies of scales. Many $$ in the pocket at each 645Z sold. Many.

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Gets lots of publicity in a professional area that purchases high end expensive gear -- They don't purchase MF gear
See the buzz comment. Exactly the same thing.

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Gives their range a breadth no one else can, (once they add the FF next year), q to MF -- How do you generate value from such a range?
Well, if someone moans because Canon has a step up option but then you don't agree that Pentax has a + if it has a proposition of very smal to very big sensor, what can I do ? Of course it generates value.

QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day if they want -- For a studio setting... yes. For everything else, probably not.
Mmm 645 traditionaly is more of a landscape oriented cam than studio so of course.
Of course, if you seek sport events... Pro does not equal sports, fortunately btw.

09-22-2014, 10:28 AM   #54
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QuoteOriginally posted by jpzk Quote
The 135-400 would be right there in my choices of "long glass".
Paired with the HD 1.4X teleconverter ... could work out to be a game changer for me.
The 18-135 in APS-C is becoming a de facto standard, especially for WR and outdoor walkaround glass. Canon, Fuji...

That corps will also be in the market for a long tele from 135ish +.

This creates a 2-lens pairing and a great market bracket for the smaller kit crowd, which is one way DSLRs can compete with mirrorless where such lenses are not common at all.
09-22-2014, 10:33 AM - 1 Like   #55
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
This creates a 2-lens pairing and a great market bracket for the smaller kit crowd, which is one way DSLRs can compete with mirrorless where such lenses are not common at all.
The MILC fanatics should have this comment tattooed on the inside of their eyelids.
09-22-2014, 10:33 AM   #56
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
According to a recent CNET article, only 0.12% of professional photographers use medium format now. I don't see how any of your listed achievements can be realized considering the market is so microscopic.
The Pentax 645z alone can easily quadruple that marked......
09-22-2014, 11:07 AM   #57
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09-22-2014, 11:33 AM   #58
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Yeh!
No magazine or website can compare them to anything else. If the 645z gets mentioned it is the #1 in that category. It generates mentions of the word 'Pentax' and at this point brand awareness and media attention are priceless. It establishes them at the high end of the market with a product the others cannot touch. Classic product positioning. Very few people buy the high end product but they like to be associated with a brand that offers that.
You did notice the price of the camera and the lenses, right? And you did notice the entire first year production is sold? With a 4 week waiting period?

You have that reversed, I meant they are generating lots of publicity in the MF market, a segment that does buy high end gear. And they buy other gear as well. But even if we consider your definition do you really think a D810 shooter who bought that camera because it was highest dynamic range and megapixels available would not consider a 645z for the same reason? Not dedicated Nikon shooters, photographers who actually buy based on results not the name on the front. I know two high end landscape shooters that moved from 5dmkII to D810 just because of the megapixels. Both are considering the 645z as their next step up.

Who said anything about value? I didn't. I said they will have a breadth of range no one else does. if their marketing department cannot capitalize on that, shame on them.

You did not read what I wrote. I said that marketing can have a field day embarrassing the D810. Marketing has nothing to do with reality. I expected someone to take issue with that one. Of course the D810 would be easier to carry and many other things, but if you are putting together a marketing piece you just pick the features you want to use to make your 'stuff' look better than the other guys 'stuff'. Marketing 101. And the 645z "Stomps the D810 in enough specification categories that marketing can have a field day"

I get you are disappointed that we got a 645z instead of a FF camera. But from a strategic viewpoint making a splash in MF was brilliant. They have a market there to protect and improve, they have no FF market so they will be starting from scratch whether it is released this year or next year or 5 years from now.
The "entire first year" claim has been stated so many times that it's taken on a life of its own. Has anyone actually done a fact check on that? But does it matter if it's sold out or what the wait is if they are only making five in a day or whatever it may or may not be? Someone please state how many Ricoh are actually making. That's the only meaningful figure.

Beyond that, all the claims of "Ricoh can use this for trickle-down marketing" lose importance at some point. What they say is one thing... what potential customers respond to with their own money is the part that counts. Can you find anyone who said they bought a K-3 because they were so impressed with the 645Z?
09-22-2014, 11:56 AM   #59
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
The "entire first year" claim has been stated so many times that it's taken on a life of its own. Has anyone actually done a fact check on that?
Pentax exec said it in one of the Photokina interviews - in-English - and said the wait for a 645Z is 3-4 weeks and he 'likes that.'
QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
Can you find anyone who said they bought a K-3 [current flagship consumer camera] because they were so impressed with the 645Z?
Ask me again in a decade.
09-22-2014, 12:08 PM   #60
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The Pentax 645z alone can easily quadruple that marked......
Mmmmm.....

I don't think this market grows save at the top end. it is not price driven.

MF's bread and butter used be set piece studio, postcard landscape (Pentax 67), tour groups (Fuji's texas Leica's), and weddings (Rolleiflex.

I see none of those productive markets growing so I see MF demand being a replacement system or hobbyist driven. The big $$$'s with buy Leica S anyway. It's a mini-mini market share market.
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