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10-05-2014, 01:39 AM   #121
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DA20-40 Ltd : it wasn't , by mistake and unique thinking of the so called "testers"


A few modest examples of picts i took with it :
https://www.flickr.com/search/?text=DA20-40mm&user_id=10321525%40N07&sort=date-posted-desc


But this has nothing to do with this thread

10-05-2014, 04:38 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by goubejp Quote
My experience in working in R&D is that good management yeald to better results than spending tons of money. Engineers are not traders, they need to be motivated and are generally impassioned people.
Good engineers are passionnated (I'am passionnated but one could say I'am no good). But even if your are passionnated, I agree that you need management at help. Time spent in stupid process, never doing anything innovative is killer engineer. You need your engineers to enjoy their job.

---------- Post added 10-05-14 at 01:45 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I work for a cinema camera rental company in Los Angeles. In addition to renting existing equipment, we have an in-house engineering team. The company has developed several products that have made significant waves in the industry, and we have a constant stream of new customers who would never have heard of our company, if not for the new products we offer.

This idea that R&D is prohibitively expensive is arrogant and uninformed. Unless one has intimate knowledge of Ricoh's R&D budget and existing catalog of R&D work, one can't possibly know what is "prohibitively" expensive and what is not. Who's to say such work hasn't been in progress for years? Who's to say Ricoh is incapable of looking at the published patents by other companies, or the more than a century's worth of optical scientific literature?

The myriad of camera companies that have sprung up in the last few years, especially the very small ones, should show us that it is possible for a company to make a product, and that, if the product fills a need or is of sufficient perceived quality, it can attract customers.

Right now, Sigma's lens designs are garnering more prestige then Pentax's. SIGMA. That should tell us all we need to know. If Sigma can come up with lenses that are some of the crown jewels of the photographic world, I believe Ricoh can, too. If they don't want to, that is up to them. But I don't think any of us has any reason to think they are not capable.

Unless some of us have information that the rest of us do not.
I agree with you that the photographic industry is a small industry with small investments where it is easy to start. Almost nothing prevent you to be the next Sigma and Samyang is already doing well with just manual and heavy lenses ! Bodies are also very easy to design, for the most part it is puzzle with a few parts. All the hardware is standard hardware except maybe pentaprism & mirror and sensor, and this you can outsource. What is more difficult then is to get the network effect of your own mount.

This cannot compare to the R&D Intel put into a new processor or AIrbus put in a new plane.
10-05-2014, 05:52 AM   #123
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The engineering roadblock today is the automated factory. Engineers can design products all day long, especially for comparatively small volume, professional applications like cinema. Designing products that you can make in the hundreds of thousands, or millions, without much human intervention (people are just too expensive to use making high-volume products) is a real challenge. Then, to make the capital investment pay for itself, you have to run the plant flat-out 24/7. When sales slow down, what happens then? Nikon and Canon is the answer.

Robots don't go on strike, get sick, get divorced, steal or anything else bad that people do. But you can't lay a robot off - you still have to pay for the machines whether they're running or not.

Sigma can do what it does because it makes lenses for every mount and only lenses (oh, yeah, they make a really hot-selling camera brand, I hear) - and they reverse engineer a lot of their engineering. They don't have to drop everything and start making a camera body, and a flash and a grip, and then a silver one and new lenses, and rework old lenses.

If it is so easy then either Ricoh is just an awful company and we should change brands or management is just using this as a Sunday hobby, not committed - and we should change brands.

I continue to wonder why people argue about how much better / smarter / faster everyone else is. Why are you tied to Pentax? Go buy what is better - it's OK - you should be happy.

Last edited by monochrome; 10-05-2014 at 06:55 AM.
10-05-2014, 06:04 AM   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
+1, the signal you send to them is to change the mount for FF!
Tough spot in which for them to be. I mean if they change the mount then they risk losing customers entirely. If I have to rebuy camera body AND all lenses, then I'm looking at the bigger picture and seeing what Canon, Nikon, and Sony have to offer. So the camera and lenses would have to be MUCH nicer, or priced accordingly. At which point they lose profits.

If they do keep the same mount, then according to 'Aristophanes', they also lose profits. They're hosed either way.

10-05-2014, 06:44 AM   #125
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Eh, part of that has to do with the fact that Sigmas reach a much broader market, and most of these reviews come form Canon/Nikon users who have never seriously used (or in some cases even touched) a Pentax DSLR lens/combo. This is not to say that the ART lenses aren't superb optically. They really are quite nice, but a fair comparison is kind of difficult to come by.

These lenses also continue the long Sigma tradition of overly large size and shoddy build quality outside of the optics. That's just how Sigma has prioritized its development resources. IMO, ricoh does still have an opportunity to build buzz outside the Pentax world with a FF body and then use that buzz to generate attention for new lens designs (particularly primes) that showcase the Pentax hallmarks of compact size and high build quality (as well as high quality optics). This of course assumes that there will be new lens designs in the pipeline once the existing ones are refreshed!

QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
you don't think what? the fact is that the sigma art lenses are getting rave reviews, and the 18-35 is one of the landmark lenses of the past decade. it has won awards. can you name the last time Pentax released a lens as highly regarded as the sigma art 50 or the 18-35? I certainly cannot. I'm pretty sure it wasnt the Limited zoom.
10-05-2014, 07:11 AM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
you don't think what? the fact is that the sigma art lenses are getting rave reviews, and the 18-35 is one of the landmark lenses of the past decade. it has won awards. can you name the last time Pentax released a lens as highly regarded as the sigma art 50 or the 18-35? I certainly cannot. I'm pretty sure it wasnt the Limited zoom.
OK, I will take an example which is... well not very good but it kinda illustrate my point pretty well.
See tha Hollywood self congratulations awards they give themselves every year?
See the sort of movies/series getting those ?
Right, getting awards is not difficult if that's your aim and you got the money.
It won't change the fact that most Hollywood are crap or approaching crap. And this is nothing to do with European vs American thing. Thankful there's Sundance.

Now it also applies to Pentax and certainly doesn't excuse a lot of things. But Pentax never (so far) designed lenses to please benchmarks and sharpness gurus. It doesn't make Sigma lenses bad, certainly not.
But judging the superiority of glass 'cos the maker get awards or reviews is, IMO, very short-sighted (and the opposite is true too).
10-05-2014, 08:25 AM   #127
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Now it also applies to Pentax and certainly doesn't excuse a lot of things. But Pentax never (so far) designed lenses to please benchmarks and sharpness gurus. It doesn't make Sigma lenses bad, certainly not. But judging the superiority of glass 'cos the maker get awards or reviews is, IMO, very short-sighted (and the opposite is true too).
There was a story going around when the K-7 was released that Hoya's executive in charge of Pentax (the nephew of the Hoya Chairman, I think) told Pentax to design lenses that would win on the testing websites. As the story went, the optical engineers protested this assignment, argued, dragged their feet and all manner of passive-aggressive refusal since making those lenses would totally change the character of Pentax optics.

Shortly thereafter Pentax had many fewer optical engineers, including a rather famous one.
10-05-2014, 09:06 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
OK, I will take an example which is... well not very good but it kinda illustrate my point pretty well.
See tha Hollywood self congratulations awards they give themselves every year?
See the sort of movies/series getting those ?
Right, getting awards is not difficult if that's your aim and you got the money.
It won't change the fact that most Hollywood are crap or approaching crap. And this is nothing to do with European vs American thing. Thankful there's Sundance.

Now it also applies to Pentax and certainly doesn't excuse a lot of things. But Pentax never (so far) designed lenses to please benchmarks and sharpness gurus. It doesn't make Sigma lenses bad, certainly not.
But judging the superiority of glass 'cos the maker get awards or reviews is, IMO, very short-sighted (and the opposite is true too).
that is not really an accurate analogy. most Hollywood awards are for individual crafts within films, such as costume design or cinematography: they are not dependent on the overall quality of the story.

this is beside my original point. I never said ricoh should be making the lenses Sigma is making. I said it is arrogant to presume (and tell others as though you are speaking factually) that Ricoh is not capable of doing things because r&d is prohibitively expensive (unless one has inside information about Ricoh's r&d budgets). as I Sayyid before, whether Ricoh chooses to do things like designing new mounts is up to them.

10-05-2014, 09:54 AM   #129
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
that is not really an accurate analogy. most Hollywood awards are for individual crafts within films, such as costume design or cinematography: they are not dependent on the overall quality of the story.
Sharpness in corners at f/1.4 is as related to making great pictures as to the crafting of clothes is related to great movies.
10-05-2014, 10:02 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by fuent104 Quote
I said it is arrogant to presume (and tell others as though you are speaking factually) that Ricoh is not capable of doing things because r&d is prohibitively expensive
What makes it a challenge for Ricoh to produce lenses similar to those Sigma is producing - which is not to say everyone prefers the style of image result that comes out of a Sigma lens - is that Ricoh would need to start from scratch, leaving all of their historical engineering, culture, philosophy and (to a degree) patents behind.

I presume lenses are not engineered from scratch, but build upon an embedded catalog of engineering proofs, the cost of which was paid for years and even decades ago. In some cases lens design is dependent on the experience and brilliance of a designer, who can be compared to a CAD catalog stored in his head. That's why the loss of Hirakawa Jun was so meaningful to us.
10-05-2014, 04:37 PM   #131
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I was under the impression that Ricoh was going to represent the "hi-tech" aspect of the photography department but it appears the new Pentax "S" line of products will now do this. I am wondering where this could lead - I'm cynical enough to imagine the line as just a way for R&D to pay for itself in the short term. I suppose it's possible a new long term line of lenses could grow from something here but it wouldn't happen right away.

The interview from PK2014 let on that the DA* line would be updated along with the FA LTD's. It can't be too far away or they'd never have mentioned it. I expect Ricoh to update the coatings on the FA line and the motors in the DA* as well. I'd consider buying a new 50-135 if they fixed the SDM issues.
10-05-2014, 04:57 PM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
People buy Nikon FF to get the 14-24.

Then they buy to get the fast, long zooms.

Everything in between is replicated elsewhere and is where APS-C competes.

I bought my Nikon for the 135mm f2.0 DC. But who's keeping score
02-06-2015, 04:22 PM   #133
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Any idea about wide / standard FF zooms? I suspect they will take a while.
02-06-2015, 04:37 PM   #134
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QuoteOriginally posted by formercanuck Quote
Any idea about wide / standard FF zooms? I suspect they will take a while.
The September 2014 roadmap, which they're still showing on the Ricoh mother ship,
has a 14-25mm (or thereabouts) "DA wide zoom".

It would be interesting to see it morph into a D-FA lens
that could be a Nikon 14-24/2.8 rival,
although we might still want a smaller crop version.
02-06-2015, 05:18 PM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
The September 2014 roadmap, which they're still showing on the Ricoh mother ship, has a 14-25mm (or thereabouts) "DA wide zoom".
I'm betting this will be a Tamron 15-24mm f/2.8 rebadge job with styling la pentax. After that, all pentax needs is a 24-70mm f/2.8 and they will be set. the FA limiteds will possibly be expanded, and I'd personally like to see a D-FA*200mm f/4 ED [IF] Macro released.
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