Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
12-23-2014, 08:25 AM   #196
Site Supporter
Aristophanes's Avatar

Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Dartmouth, Nova Scotia
Photos: Albums
Posts: 3,791
QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
what ever it will be, stills department can stay as is, 24 megapixels is more than enough, Iso is fine too, don;t shoot higher than iso 800 anyway... but video, I am begging you Ricoh Pentax, better codec, 4 K resolution, cinema standard... Focus peaking during video recording, aperture control in manual mode, clean HDMI out to external recorders. Is that much to ask? I am not even asking for phase af tracking during video recording, but that would also be nice....
4K is not going to happen as almost no consumer can process or view. It's a non-starter.

H.265 is likely, maybe next gen cameras, probably 2 gen from now.

12-23-2014, 08:51 AM   #197
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,604
QuoteOriginally posted by Alizarine Quote
Unfortunately recent interviews with Ricoh Imaging persons clarify that they won't focus on making leapfrog developments in the video area...

Sometimes I just wish they'd make a video-inclined K-01 successor to compete with the GH line. But there is more at stake in the stills department, where all players are struggling to make significant profits. We'll see Pentax's direction post-2014 once CP+ starts.
Maybe because they focus too much on video... If I buy a camera, I expect a good still experience. This may involve even better AF, embedded flash that can support High Speed Synch and bouce on ceiling, maybe an EVF and a wheel to change the exposure and see the result directly ? This could be support for 40MP still when on a tripod like next Olympus or better sync capabilities through wifi connectivity so to use the phone GPS for astro tracing and tagging photos... Why not otherwise like EXR, set different exposure time to different pixels on the sensor to one shot real HDR or increase dynamic range?

Better videos is a not what I would expect from a camera. If I'am primarily after video, I would buy a video device...
12-23-2014, 08:57 AM   #198
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,612
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Why not otherwise like EXR, set different exposure time to different pixels on the sensor to one shot real HDR or increase dynamic range?
Have you ever wondered why Fuji mothballed that technology? : the problem was with diffraction, sensel crosstalk, and increased noise in the highlight areas of the image.
12-23-2014, 07:45 PM   #199
Pentaxian
Uluru's Avatar

Join Date: May 2010
Location: Back to my Walkabout Creek
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 2,482
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Maybe because they focus too much on video... ..
??

Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
Everyone else tries to do a good job in it and provide competent video features. So far, Pentax hardware has more potential than its software, and that is the recognised problem.
To involved customers, it shows missed out opportunity. It is pity indeed and it does not show company's "focus on stills', but rather company's poor judgment and underutilisation of available hardware. It is same as wasted opportunity and wasted resources. And they even brag about it.

12-24-2014, 04:15 AM   #200
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,604
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
??

Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
Everyone else tries to do a good job in it and provide competent video features. So far, Pentax hardware has more potential than its software, and that is the recognised problem.
To involved customers, it shows missed out opportunity. It is pity indeed and it does not show company's "focus on stills', but rather company's poor judgment and underutilisation of available hardware. It is same as wasted opportunity and wasted resources. And they even brag about it.
Sorry to be more explicit, it was from that statement:

'But there is more at stake in the stills department, where all players are struggling to make significant profits.'

As for the hardware remark our camera could for example be a game console, or spy wifi networks with optional flu card. It could serve as router or put in cluster to do scientific computing. The optional GPS could be the basis of a navigation system and to track the distance you run last day.

This is not because the hardware is here that is relevant to add the feature or it is free. Software is one of the most expensive things to make. Airbus A380 cost is software for 30%. Just the software... And it doesn't even allow you to make movies.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-24-2014 at 04:37 AM.
12-24-2014, 04:55 AM   #201
Site Supporter
Zygonyx's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Ile de France
Posts: 2,983
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
??

Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
Everyone else tries to do a good job in it and provide competent video features.
I think you forgot Fujifilm and Sigma...
12-24-2014, 08:41 AM   #202
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,206
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
??

Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
Everyone else tries to do a good job in it and provide competent video features. So far, Pentax hardware has more potential than its software, and that is the recognised problem.
To involved customers, it shows missed out opportunity. It is pity indeed and it does not show company's "focus on stills', but rather company's poor judgment and underutilisation of available hardware. It is same as wasted opportunity and wasted resources. And they even brag about it.
Nicolas was replying to Alizarine who was talking about PANASONIC.

Sorry, Uluru.
12-25-2014, 02:02 PM - 1 Like   #203
Senior Member
Danas_Anis's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 187
I jut thought about it, and well, sure Ricoh now say they will not focus on video much, but that is because I guess they marketeers are not working and do not provide on numbers of people who bounce to pentax and bounce away because they find it lacking in video, then there are others like me who choose Pentax and wants better video features. This means there is the need from the market. Those who don;t need video could be more polite and don;t tell oh no, Pentax not do video, never focus on that blah blah blah. Reasons are: Pentax already is extremely good with still imaging. Ricoh Pentax doens;t need to do much to improve video capabilities, one thing is that they simply are not using their current hardware to the possibilities, to assign two developers to work on video mode won;t really change anything to how pentax improve still images. but these two developer may do huge difference to the way Pentax cameras stand in the market.

Another thing is instead of having k500 line or KS-1 they could introduce a filmmaker oriented camera, They could thing about what they did wrong with k-01, and revive that, and lets say keep all still capturing deparmtent as is on current k50, maybe give extra pixels so it would talk better to the pixel peepers, work on some phase detection technology for video AF tracking (I would not care about AF in video, but when the cam is on a steadycam gear, sometimes you need reliable af tracker of faces).
My dream could be this: K30 body, I like it and its design, get rid of mirror, make it system camera with good EVF, flip out or swivel screen.sensor shift shake reduction, focus peaking while recording video, better quality codec, mic and audio jacks, clean HDMI out for external recording with tool like Atomos shotgun etc. Also consider 4K. I got really scared when I saw 4K televisions being already on salea at affordable prices in my country, where technology innovations come pretty late usually. Some of people are already giving questions about 4K footage.... Well anyway, I would be happy with such a camera:

K30 like body (wr)
Sensor same one as k3 with DRIII or the one on K-3 which does better job with dust removal.
I am completely happy with k-30 image quality, but if Ricoh Pentax is generous enough to give what is in k-3 for APC sensor I would love it, but k-30 level is good enough.

make it mirrorless. No need to make the body tiny small, just put away mirror and its mechanism and use the space for something that could enrich camera for something.

EVF is a must.

Good video codec capture, that would result in high broadcast quality video footage.
To keep the camera on sales for longer time, next to 1080p HD offer cinema 4K (24, 25. 30, and if possible 60 FPS) You can get rid if 720p and smaller resolutions. Very small amount of people use these nowadays.
Focus peaking during video recording,
Ability to change aperture during video recording if the one uses electronic lens.
Clean HDMI out for external recording.
Sensor shift shake reduction, (when you have a connected external mil or other audio capturing devices, you place them somewhere the one would not cause sound from operating the camera so really, no need for software based SR, Sensor Shift does a better job)
Connectivity would be great for a remote control via smartphones. I never thought it would be so great, but after I tried it at my friends camera, gosh it was like a wonder, remote control for filming opens amazing possibilities. Also, when you are filming a seminar of some kind, it is nice to be able to wirelessly broadcast video to pc which send it to projections.

flip out of swivel screen.

The only technologies that I am not seeing at pentax are swivel screens, but we have flip out screen on 645z, that is good enough, and touch screen, but touch screens are just the cool way of being modern, nothing vital. and if I udnerstood the add corectly, Ricoh Pentax already has a wireless connectivity built in in their rugged WG(?) latest camera.

I think Pentax should try it. Honestly Pentax K-mount is so awesome and would come extremely loved by filmmakers because pentax old lenses are pure awesome. Not to mention how cheap Ricoh Pentax could earn big money by resurrecting the designs of their old lenses and renew them into cine style lenses. I forgot the name of the brand, but there are some popular cine type lenses that cost no less than a modern full featured high class electronic lens with AF and stuff, but these cine lenses are for fillmmakers, has really nice focusing ring (the ones on old pentax lenses are very similar) and has no electronics at all, maybe to change aperture one connection, so I see many missed opportunties from Ricoh Pentax side, they have everything except will to do the step.


It is not like Pentax needs to try to go into hollywood productions, only recognize bridge imagers, people who do stills photography and do filmmaking.

12-25-2014, 02:37 PM   #204
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,604
QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
I jut thought about it, and well, sure Ricoh now say they will not focus on video much, but that is because I guess they marketeers are not working and do not provide on numbers of people who bounce to pentax and bounce away because they find it lacking in video, then there are others like me who choose Pentax and wants better video features. This means there is the need from the market. Those who don;t need video could be more polite and don;t tell oh no, Pentax not do video, never focus on that blah blah blah. Reasons are: Pentax already is extremely good with still imaging. Ricoh Pentax doens;t need to do much to improve video capabilities, one thing is that they simply are not using their current hardware to the possibilities, to assign two developers to work on video mode won;t really change anything to how pentax improve still images. but these two developer may do huge difference to the way Pentax cameras stand in the market.
Kind of naive view for me here, sorry. You think that:
- you have better insign on overall market than their marketers that can't even understand how many client they miss without having good video... And of course you did an in-deph analysis of this and had different conclusion
- you think that even through they say they do not focus on video, you or me can convince them to change their mind... Just because you think they should do this way.
- you think they do not have anybody in their team working to make the video software to work and that 2 random engineer could do the trick... I suppose you are expert in software design in embedded device... for me it is more 10-20 guys working for 5 years... They may have already more software developpers focussing on video capabilities than that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
Another thing is instead of having k500 line or KS-1 they could introduce a filmmaker oriented camera,
Sure because you want it this must be their best option

QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
lso consider 4K. I got really scared when I saw 4K televisions being already on salea at affordable prices in my country, where technology innovations come pretty late usually. Some of people are already giving questions about 4K footage.... Well anyway, I would be happy with such a camera:
The only reliable source of 4K movies are cinema. 4K TV use often a part of the signal to manage 3D so they can't be 4K and 3D at the same time. And the only reliable content of 4K is photography.

The infrastructure is not here for even full hd broadcasting and most movies one can buy (something less and less people do theses days) is 2K. I'd say if a blockbuster can sell blueray in 2K and DVD still sell in SD, it is likely you can have a business even if limited by 2K.

If you go for it anyway I'd say good luck to you to do some serious post processing of 4K video with your computer.


QuoteOriginally posted by Danas_Anis Quote
I think Pentax should try it. Honestly Pentax K-mount is so awesome and would come extremely loved by filmmakers because pentax old lenses are pure awesome. Not to mention how cheap Ricoh Pentax could earn big money by resurrecting the designs of their old lenses and renew them into cine style lenses. I forgot the name of the brand, but there are some popular cine type lenses that cost no less than a modern full featured high class electronic lens with AF and stuff, but these cine lenses are for fillmmakers, has really nice focusing ring (the ones on old pentax lenses are very similar) and has no electronics at all, maybe to change aperture one connection, so I see many missed opportunties from Ricoh Pentax side, they have everything except will to do the step.
This is even worse, you ask them to increase they inventory and so the money immobilized waiting for client to buy the gear and to have their opticians spend their time designing lenses for movies instead of for example prepary a set of FF lense if they plan an FF camera or releasing the lenses in the roadmap like the 12-28 or 70-200... Many wait after a fast action/sport tele and this 70-200 might really be this one. Maybe there more still shooters that care of this lens that Pentax will be able to sell 1000-2000$ per unit than users that want a cheap movie oriented camera body... If at least it was to be on the new camera flagship and sell for 1500$... Look at KS1 or K500 prices. There no money to make here.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-25-2014 at 03:01 PM.
12-25-2014, 03:35 PM   #205
Senior Member
Danas_Anis's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 187
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Kind of naive view for me here, sorry. You think that:
- you have better insign on overall market than their marketers that can't even understand how many client they miss without having good video... And of course you did an in-deph analysis of this and had different conclusion
- you think that even through they say they do not focus on video, you or me can convince them to change their mind... Just because you think they should do this way.
- you think they do not have anybody in their team working to make the video software to work and that 2 random engineer could do the trick... I suppose you are expert in software design in embedded device... for me it is more 10-20 guys working for 5 years... They may have already more software developpers focussing on video capabilities than that.



Sure because you want it this must be their best option



The only reliable source of 4K movies are cinema. 4K TV use often a part of the signal to manage 3D so they can't be 4K and 3D at the same time. And the only reliable content of 4K is photography.

The infrastructure is not here for even full hd broadcasting and most movies one can buy (something less and less people do theses days) is 2K. I'd say if a blockbuster can sell blueray in 2K and DVD still sell in SD, it is likely you can have a business even if limited by 2K.

If you go for it anyway I'd say good luck to you to do some serious post processing of 4K video with your computer.




This is even worse, you ask them to increase they inventory and so the money immobilized waiting for client to buy the gear and to have their opticians spend their time designing lenses for movies instead of for example prepary a set of FF lense if they plan an FF camera or releasing the lenses in the roadmap like the 12-28 or 70-200... Many wait after a fast action/sport tele and this 70-200 might really be this one. Maybe there more still shooters that care of this lens that Pentax will be able to sell 1000-2000$ per unit than users that want a cheap movie oriented camera body... If at least it was to be on the new camera flagship and sell for 1500$... Look at KS1 or K500 prices. There no money to make here.
Not saying I have better insight, only see how much they miss and look like not doing the work really, but that doens;t mean I have a better insight. But I was scouting around pentax related topics for few years and came to a conclusion, that Pentax really loose a lot due to their poor focus on video department. Of course the losses and general negatives comes from the lack of 35mm (a.k.a full frame) sensor lack. So they are not filling holes in two deparmtents. But are trying with with such experiments like k-01 and hire super expensive designer who ruins their possible very successful mirrorless system. Now they invest into a camera with blinking leds, that will not be big hit because well, it doens;t offer what people need next to those blinking leds, articulating screen and built in wifi as I personally see it, K-S1 is nice looking camera but it completely doens;t fit nor complete or even participate in the area Ricoh Pentax made it for... that is my own personal opinion, but if you target smartphone users to come to DSLRs swivel screen and built in wifi is a must, cause these people capture photos go to FB or wahtever social network and instantly upload selfless. KS-1 doesn't full fill that in a way people would expect. The only department where it will succeed is to people who like blinking led lights and colorful cameras. But design in general is very nice, can't comment on ergonomics though.

At least Ricoh Pentax seems to be filling the hole of absence of "FF" body....

Maybe next will be video.

You can think as much as you want that video is not important, but in the end it is. Ever since first video capable DSLR came to the public, now it is a big feature of any DSLR. Who ever started this created a new type of an artist and market. And yes, those who work on serious big hollywood straight production will surely pick Blackmagic Ursa or RED anytime rather than go with likes like 5D mark or other DSLR camera. But there are people in between. And new user, don;t know about you, but next to photoshoots my clients ask for videography.
What I want to say is I ma not telling Pentax to put Ursa or RED into small Pentax body, I am saying that video department is a big part of any DSLR system now. And there are users who require more serious look at it and would like to use Pentax.

As I see any business, the more you earn and stringer become, the better you are. Maybe I am naive, I am just looking into very simplistic schemes and as a result, I see self harming view from Ricoh Pentax, if they continue ignoring video next to photography.

Anyone can say that if you need video, get a camcorder, but camcorder that could offer what DSLRs can offer cost a fortune, so why not take those people and earn from them? I would think that Pentax should be happy that there are people who want Pentax, to push away a client is very easy, but to bring in is harder, so the longer they refuge to recognize indie filmmakers later on they won't be able to bring them back.

But to not hijack this thread, I guess we should end the discussion about video here. And let the rumors from the japan website be not forgotten.
Hundreds people can say pentax should not improve video and get rid of video, but I will still say they should give video features some love.
12-25-2014, 06:17 PM   #206
Veteran Member




Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 341
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
??

Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
Well, there are many of us who think of Pentax as the "Leica for the rest of us", so what are you complaining about?
12-25-2014, 07:47 PM   #207
Pentaxian
Digitalis's Avatar

Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Adelaide.
Posts: 8,612
QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Video in Pentax cameras is second worst only to Leica's implementation.
I sensed someone was ripping on Leica... as I recall Sigma doesn't even have Video implemented on their DSLRs or compact Foveon cameras. Fuji hasn't done all that well with their implementation of video either from what I have heard.
12-26-2014, 06:06 AM   #208
Pentaxian
thibs's Avatar

Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Belgium
Photos: Albums
Posts: 5,206
Super expensive designer has a cost near zero compared to designing and producingtheir own IC for image/video processing.
Remember they rely (up to to now) on Fijutsu's Milbeaut range. Before someone chime in and say they just have to make their own, I'll remind you all that even Nikon seem unable to produce their own IC.

All other competing OEM are electronics giants. They have the resources to do so. Ricoh/Pentax, not quite sure and even if they do, it takes time. A lot more time than designing a camera.
12-26-2014, 07:14 AM   #209
Pentaxian




Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 4,604
QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Super expensive designer has a cost near zero compared to designing and producingtheir own IC for image/video processing.
Remember they rely (up to to now) on Fijutsu's Milbeaut range. Before someone chime in and say they just have to make their own, I'll remind you all that even Nikon seem unable to produce their own IC.

All other competing OEM are electronics giants. They have the resources to do so. Ricoh/Pentax, not quite sure and even if they do, it takes time. A lot more time than designing a camera.
+1. I'am a software engineer and that's really funny.

My non engineer friends imagine that i can repear computers. The company I work for manage one thing: ticket reservation for flights. I'am sure Danas_Anis would think that you can manage a reservation system like that with maybe a dozen geeks or something.

Well the company has arround 10000 employees not counting the contracting companies that work for us. Big airlines give us hundred million euros per year to manage their reservation system.

Who would pay that much if you could just hire a few geeks and do the work in a few months?

I have the impression that because everybody can get for free some software ilegally or that some do free software it for their pleasure that many have no idea of the real cost to do such things. But no group of geek is going to fix the video of Pentax for the pleasure. This couldn't futher away from the truth. More and more only big companies have the capacity to develop such products.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 12-26-2014 at 07:24 AM.
12-26-2014, 09:06 AM   #210
Senior Member
Danas_Anis's Avatar

Join Date: Jan 2013
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 187
QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
+1. I'am a software engineer and that's really funny.

My non engineer friends imagine that i can repear computers. The company I work for manage one thing: ticket reservation for flights. I'am sure Danas_Anis would think that you can manage a reservation system like that with maybe a dozen geeks or something.

Well the company has arround 10000 employees not counting the contracting companies that work for us. Big airlines give us hundred million euros per year to manage their reservation system.

Who would pay that much if you could just hire a few geeks and do the work in a few months?

I have the impression that because everybody can get for free some software ilegally or that some do free software it for their pleasure that many have no idea of the real cost to do such things. But no group of geek is going to fix the video of Pentax for the pleasure. This couldn't futher away from the truth. More and more only big companies have the capacity to develop such products.
with all due respect life is not easy on anything. But to work on video mode it would not damage resources meant for still photography development in anyway and decent video mode in Pentax DSLRs could even help with sales and bring in more funds.... I see that here in the forums there are many afraid of videography folks and this is now hijacking the threat which has different topic.

Going back to the topic:

So next Ricoh Pentax cam might be K-3 with more DR, FF sensor better ISO performance, built in wifi and back-lit buttons. And probalby a flip out screen that we have seen on 645z
As for possible k60 Sensor from current k-3 with 24 megapixels to play with and probably backlit buttons as well.

Back lit buttons are cool.
Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
camera, ccd, couple, dslr, edition, fa, february, hoya, jim, kodak, leica, lenses, malcolm, march, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, people, plans, pma, price, production, prototype, release, ricoh, rumors, rumors from japan, sensor
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Abstract My Website and Photos on Website Scootatheschool1990 Photo Critique 11 05-22-2013 01:13 AM
Some shots from japan (645D) larkis Pentax Medium Format 38 10-19-2012 05:26 PM
Travel Some shots from Japan (Sep, 2010) PacificCanuck Post Your Photos! 4 03-27-2011 01:44 PM
Pentax JAPAN formally apologizes on their website falconeye Pentax News and Rumors 47 01-30-2011 10:46 PM
Bullshit rumors from Italy eurostar Pentax News and Rumors 25 12-23-2008 03:18 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 12:00 PM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top