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12-18-2014, 11:03 AM   #196
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I used to like tilt for shooting over a crowd, but LCDs have improved to the point that I can usually see a normal LCD well enough to compose a photo while holding the camera over my head.
agreed particularly anything oled

12-18-2014, 11:56 AM   #197
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QuoteOriginally posted by rburgoss Quote
Just to fuel up rumors and gossip about a new flagship coming:

Yesterday, after some time thinking about taking the plunge for the K3, I went to the local Pentax dealer decided to drive home with my new K3... Since several days ago, this guy who is more of a friend than a salesperson (dealer owner), gave me a good price on the K3 + da18-135 kit. He even was gonna throw in the grip for a few coins more. (Worth mentioning that this is his LAST K3 in inventory!!!!)

So, I walked in, asked directly for a final price (or the chance to buy body only + grip) and out of nowhere, his answer was:

You should wait!

Wait????? Why? How long?

His answers: Because I know you want the latest.... not long, about two months (february)...

The rest of the conversation of course got a bit inquisitive from my side, but knowing he could not say more, I didn't push it. The fact is that something big is coming in the near future.
Not to discredit you or anything, but this is about the fifth time I've heard a story like this. So I hope you don't mind, but I won't pay any attention to it.


QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
I really doubt that K3 users will upgrade to a camera that just have tilting screen and buildin WiFi... looking at the D72000 Nikon will stick with the 24mp sensor at their APS-C top camera, so probably Pentax will do it too.. better AF?? mmm K3 have a good AF perhaps not a great AF-C but once again.. for a K3 users thats too little to upgrade ... more FPS ?? mmm not enough..
I think any substantial future AF performance improvement would involve new lenses with faster motors. Right now, "consumer" lenses with DC motors like the 18-135 focus faster than "professional" lenses like the DA* line, which seems silly, because these lenses are much more expensive. Hell, even screwdrive lenses are often faster. The 35/2.4 screams performance! But the big expensive DA* line is slow. So IF they are going to bring out "something big", I hope it's new fast-focusing DA* glass. I think they have a lot to gain from it.

Still, it would be nice if Pentax improved the firmware so that the AF system is more versatile. Something like this would be nice:
12-18-2014, 12:04 PM   #198
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QuoteOriginally posted by starbase218 Quote
I think any substantial future AF performance improvement would involve new lenses with faster motors. Right now, "consumer" lenses with DC motors like the 18-135 focus faster than "professional" lenses like the DA* line, which seems silly, because these lenses are much more expensive. Hell, even screwdrive lenses are often faster. The 35/2.4 screams performance! But the big expensive DA* line is slow. So IF they are going to bring out "something big", I hope it's new fast-focusing DA* glass. I think they have a lot to gain from it.
I don't know much about the DA* line. What kind of motor do they use?
What advantage, if any, comes from using that kind of motor instead of the "DC motor" used in the "consumer" lenses?
12-18-2014, 12:13 PM   #199
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QuoteOriginally posted by LaurenOE Quote
Whatever it is, I'm in...except if it says "Ricoh" on the front (or back).
That would be just my luck too.
Waiting all these years for a Pentax FF, and when it comes, it says Ricoh.
That. Would. Be. Classic.
It's coming. It's not a matter of "if" but "when". Want proof? Just look at the prominence of 'Ricoh'
and the diminutive scale of 'Pentax' on recent packaging. Want more proof? Look at those Photokina
booth shots again. The 645 area is the only place in the booth where 'Pentax' is presented boldly;
everywhere else its Ricoh until you actually get close enough to see the cameras.

I doubt they'll introduce a Ricoh FF without first converting the rest of the line. My prediction is that
Ricoh will continue to transition from the lower end. Products like the XG-1 and Q system will get
rebadged first. Then the low-end DSLRs, progressively moving up to the flagship. Last, the 645,
once Ricoh is confident they've established their name as the holder of Pentax's reputation. It's
clear from the Photokina booth that they're being especially careful with the 645. Everything else
is fair game IMO and I wouldn't be surprised if they rebadge everything but the 645 all at once, rather
than taking the gradual approach I just outlined. Time line? I predict we'll see more Ricoh badges
by the end of 2015.

EDIT: I just looked again at the Ricoh Photokina 2012 booth shots for comparison. 'Pentax' was
then not only still prominent but still placed in front of 'Ricoh'. That was but two years ago. Safe
money says the name 'Pentax' will be gone or nearly gone in another two years.


Last edited by tvdtvdtvd; 12-18-2014 at 12:22 PM.
12-18-2014, 12:21 PM - 1 Like   #200
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That only proves that Pentax is now a brand of Ricoh Imaging; not that Ricoh Imaging is getting ready to get rid of their Pentax brand.
Panasonic isn't getting rid of the Lumix brand for example, and that brand bears much less significance than Pentax.

Let's not forget that all ILC products are marked "Pentax".
12-18-2014, 12:33 PM   #201
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I don't know much about the DA* line. What kind of motor do they use?
What advantage, if any, comes from using that kind of motor instead of the "DC motor" used in the "consumer" lenses?
I think the issue is a mixture. SDM motors (which are on DA * lenses) are pretty slow motors. But they really don't focus any slower than the screw motor. Certainly a good ring motor could go faster than those. The other issue is that focus throws on some of these lenses (DA *50-135 and DA *55 in particular) are really long and it can take a long time for the lens to get where it is going, even if the focus lock is pretty quick and certain. A lens like the DA 40 limited is screw driven, but really fast because it has small lens elements and the focus throw is pretty short.
12-18-2014, 12:44 PM   #202
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That only proves that Pentax is now a brand of Ricoh Imaging; not that Ricoh Imaging is getting ready to get rid of their Pentax brand.
Panasonic isn't getting rid of the Lumix brand for example, and that brand bears much less significance than Pentax.

Let's not forget that all ILC products are marked "Pentax".
Not quite the same. Lumix has always been Panasonic. The Lumix line was created by Panasonic and
there is no other history to it. No confusion whatsoever.

A better comparison is Sony's acquisition of Minolta. Sony, being the cocky buggers bent on world domination
that they are, never once bothered to market a line of 'Minolta' cameras. You can bet Sony would have done
the same thing with Pentax, (oh the horror to even contemplate).

Ricoh has been kind and respectful of the Pentax legacy. If anything I see them as great admirers of Pentax's
place in history and eager to regain that place for themselves. But they also have pride in their own history
and identity. I'm quite certain they ultimately want the world to know that it is Ricoh who is making products
like the K-3 and 645Z and if it were not for Ricoh we wouldn't have them. Why wouldn't they want to take
full credit for their efforts?
12-18-2014, 01:01 PM   #203
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Its funny how people tent to say.. "we heard this before.. " but they dont see how Pentax history behaved in the las 10 years,

The fist FF camera was release by Canon on 2002, and then Nikon came with the D3 in 2007, since 2006 Pentax ( the company it self) didnt have a clear horizon, 2007 they moved with Hoya and we all know that Hoya never was interested in photography, they were interested only in optics technology and there was a rumor that they were not going to continue with the camera business.. by 2011 Pentax was sold to Ricoh and a few time later we saw the K5ii ( that is not totally developed under Ricoh management ) so it is basically a better K5.. it wasnt until 2013 when we saw a real Ricoh/Pentax camera the K3.. So basically what im saying is that it isnt until a couple years ago that Pentax have some real stability in order to release new products using new technology and with a company that support this proyects ( Hoya didt do it, Ricoh does )...

So yes.. we heard the rumor before, actually since 2001 with the Pentax MZ-D, but it wasnt until NOW, that Pentax can have some real company stability.. before the company didnt even know if the next year it was going to exist :/ :/ .. Now Ricoh is showing new products.. bad or good.. but NEW... also they do some marketing ( not that much but more than before), we saw some FF lenses at Photokina 2014... and they already said that they are developing the FF, and it is coming next year.. so.. yes, is not a 100% true that it will be release in the early months of 2015, but it is also not true that is not going to happen... i'll say that is more likely to happen than to not happen.

12-18-2014, 01:09 PM   #204
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QuoteOriginally posted by tvdtvdtvd Quote
Not quite the same. Lumix has always been Panasonic. The Lumix line was created by Panasonic and
there is no other history to it. No confusion whatsoever.

A better comparison is Sony's acquisition of Minolta. Sony, being the cocky buggers bent on world domination
that they are, never once bothered to market a line of 'Minolta' cameras. You can bet Sony would have done
the same thing with Pentax, (oh the horror to even contemplate).

Ricoh has been kind and respectful of the Pentax legacy. If anything I see them as great admirers of Pentax's
place in history and eager to regain that place for themselves. But they also have pride in their own history
and identity. I'm quite certain they ultimately want the world to know that it is Ricoh who is making products
like the K-3 and 645Z and if it were not for Ricoh we wouldn't have them. Why wouldn't they want to take
full credit for their efforts?
You are right. What a shame with Minolta. I grew up admiring their products along with Asahi/Pentax. Sony killed the Minolta brand and so far it is winning the war given that they supply sensors for Pentax, Nikon and now I hear maybe even for Canon. That would be the day!

However, credit to Sony, they have brought their years of video experience to the DSLR side. So, I guess you take the bad with the good.

I feel for Ricoh. They are paying the bills but can't get credit for it. They are smart though. Pentax is too much of a legend to kill off like Sony did to Minolta. They will alienate lots of diehard Pentaxians.
12-18-2014, 01:17 PM   #205
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
For the record, it's a curse, not a proverb. It's based on the fact that "interesting times" in history usually involve wars, famines, plagues, revolutions
A related adage might be: "Be careful what you wish for." You really want Pentax to be more innovative and produce more stuff that is "new and exciting?? The fact is, when Pentax tries to come up with trendy, new product, they end up producing stuff like the K-01 and K-S1, products which, although they have their fans and admirers, are hardly what the innovation-junkies had in mind when they were bawling for something new and exciting. What if Pentax is just not all that good at cutting edge innovation? What if that sort of thing just isn't in the DNA of the company (or of their steward company, Ricoh)? Pentax seems to do better adapting existing technologies to old school photography values, as when they combined AF technology with old school lens designs (in the FA limiteds).

The K-3 replacement, assuming it's drawing near, will probably fulfill a function very similar to the K-5iis: a placeholder product meant to fill the gap until Ricoh can get its hands on the new sensor tech coming down the pike.
12-18-2014, 01:17 PM   #206
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It might not be exactly the same, but there are many similarities. Lumix is a Panasonic brand. Pentax is a Ricoh brand. Panasonic writes Lumix on their cameras. Ricoh writes Pentax on their cameras. Panasonic writes the company name on their Lumix cameras. Ricoh wrote once the company name on a Pentax camera. Lumix users are fine with that. Pentax users are in despair, the sky is falling and the brand dead and buried; wait, that's a difference

Joking aside, Ricoh can continue to use the Pentax brand as long as they wish, just like they're doing with the GR brand, and like Panasonic is doing with Lumix.
Of course, I cannot say it'll go on forever, nobody can (not even Ricoh). But for now, seeing how they keep announcing Pentax-branded Pentax products, I just can't agree with the "convert Pentax to Ricoh" scenario.

We all know that Pentax started as a brand, Asahi Optical even dared to put their name on the front of the camera.

Sony... that's a different story, and there are more differences than the Panasonic/Lumix. One important difference was that Sony didn't had the right to use the Konica-Minolta brand. Another - we're in agreement that Sony (or Samsung for that matter) would never accept to promote a prominent brand like Pentax. They killed the NX brand because it was too "strong", right?

---------- Post added 18-12-14 at 10:22 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
So yes.. we heard the rumor before, actually since 2001 with the Pentax MZ-D, but it wasnt until NOW, that Pentax can have some real company stability.. before the company didnt even know if the next year it was going to exist :/ :/ .. Now Ricoh is showing new products.. bad or good.. but NEW... also they do some marketing ( not that much but more than before), we saw some FF lenses at Photokina 2014... and they already said that they are developing the FF, and it is coming next year.. so.. yes, is not a 100% true that it will be release in the early months of 2015, but it is also not true that is not going to happen... i'll say that is more likely to happen than to not happen.
And - after the cancelled MZ-D - it wasn't until the end of 2012 that Pentax Ricoh said they're working on it. Until then (i.e. while under Hoya) it was "we don't have plans for the moment".
I understand it's difficult for people who kept waiting; but until recently there wasn't much reason for hoping.
12-18-2014, 01:33 PM   #207
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
And - after the cancelled MZ-D - it wasn't until the end of 2012 that Pentax Ricoh said they're working on it. Until then (i.e. while under Hoya) it was "we don't have plans for the moment".
I understand it's difficult for people who kept waiting; but until recently there wasn't much reason for hoping.
exactly.. we gotta know.. that the years with Hoya are LOST, the company got stocked.. and before that the company didnt even knew what was going to happen with them.. as you said until recently we can see some real signs and... a year.. 2015..
12-18-2014, 02:22 PM - 1 Like   #208
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It might not be exactly the same, but there are many similarities. Lumix is a Panasonic brand. Pentax is a Ricoh brand. Panasonic writes Lumix on their cameras. Ricoh writes Pentax on their cameras. Panasonic writes the company name on their Lumix cameras. Ricoh wrote once the company name on a Pentax camera. Lumix users are fine with that. Pentax users are in despair, the sky is falling and the brand dead and buried; wait, that's a difference

Joking aside, Ricoh can continue to use the Pentax brand as long as they wish, just like they're doing with the GR brand, and like Panasonic is doing with Lumix.
Of course, I cannot say it'll go on forever, nobody can (not even Ricoh). But for now, seeing how they keep announcing Pentax-branded Pentax products, I just can't agree with the "convert Pentax to Ricoh" scenario.

We all know that Pentax started as a brand, Asahi Optical even dared to put their name on the front of the camera.

Sony... that's a different story, and there are more differences than the Panasonic/Lumix. One important difference was that Sony didn't had the right to use the Konica-Minolta brand. Another - we're in agreement that Sony (or Samsung for that matter) would never accept to promote a prominent brand like Pentax. They killed the NX brand because it was too "strong", right?

---------- Post added 18-12-14 at 10:22 PM ----------


And - after the cancelled MZ-D - it wasn't until the end of 2012 that Pentax Ricoh said they're working on it. Until then (i.e. while under Hoya) it was "we don't have plans for the moment".
I understand it's difficult for people who kept waiting; but until recently there wasn't much reason for hoping.
With all due respect, the Panasonic/Lumix situation is entirely different. Panasonic made up the name "Lumix" to create some level of "cache" for their camera business which, to that time, we decidedly low end. They felt a new brand name would provide some kind of legitimacy as they tried to move upmarket. I would liken it to Toyota creating the Lexus brand. The problem for Panasonic, if there is one, is the Lumix name hasn't really stuck as an identifier like Lexus has for Toyota.
12-18-2014, 02:37 PM   #209
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
It might not be exactly the same, but there are many similarities. Lumix is a Panasonic brand. Pentax is a Ricoh brand. Panasonic writes Lumix on their cameras. Ricoh writes Pentax on their cameras. Panasonic writes the company name on their Lumix cameras. Ricoh wrote once the company name on a Pentax camera. Lumix users are fine with that. Pentax users are in despair, the sky is falling and the brand dead and buried; wait, that's a difference

As a base line comparison in the simplest of terms, ignoring the individual histories of all corporate
identities mentioned, you are correct: Ricoh and Panasonic are, (at present), company names and
Pentax and Lumix are, (at present), brand names.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Sony... that's a different story, and there are more differences than the Panasonic/Lumix. One important difference was that Sony didn't had the right to use the Konica-Minolta brand. Another - we're in agreement that Sony (or Samsung for that matter) would never accept to promote a prominent brand like Pentax. They killed the NX brand because it was too "strong", right?
Sony is indeed a different beast. They are the "Beast". I'm sure they would slap "Sony" on a Leica and
call it their own if they ever had the chance.

As for Panasonic, (a company I do like a lot, FWIW), I think they took the conservative approach. They
entered the camera field slightly more than 10 years ago with no prior experience and no public attachment
to the name Panasonic as a camera maker. If Lumix succeeds, they can elevate awareness that Panasonic
is behind the reigns. If Lumix fails, they can downplay the Panasonic name and not have the stigma trickle
back on their other, more established markets. Different approach for different folks.

As for Pentax under Ricoh's stewardship: I'm excited. I think the Pentax legacy is in better shape now than it
has been since the late '70s / early '80s. I have no personal desire to see the name 'Pentax' go away but
it's far more important to me that the core values of Pentax remain irrespective of the the badge on the
camera. I'm just predicting what I see: Ricoh is progressively edging the name "Pentax" to the margins.
It's not difficult to follow the dots and draw the picture.

Don't forget that Ricoh, unlike Panasonic, does have a long history as a camera maker.
12-18-2014, 03:04 PM - 1 Like   #210
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QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
What if Pentax is just not all that good at cutting edge innovation?
You don't think, say, shake-reduction anti-aliasing is cutting edge?

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
What if that sort of thing just isn't in the DNA of the company (or of their steward company, Ricoh)?
Ricoh, which has given us the GXR concept, the Theta, . . . ?

QuoteOriginally posted by northcoastgreg Quote
Pentax seems to do better adapting existing technologies to old school photography values
That is one of their strengths, certainly,
but to say it's the only one would be selling them short.
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