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01-10-2015, 11:03 AM   #406
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I am very interested in APS-C. To me FullFrame and MediumFormat are something you read about, but I can't image my ever sacrificing enough money to actually own one myself.
agree entirely

01-10-2015, 11:19 AM   #407
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I have a coffee cup shaped like a camera lens.
So do I - I use it for mug shots....
01-10-2015, 11:20 AM - 1 Like   #408
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Most people know very little about Pentax and K-mount. Very, very few people even know the Q exists.
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I have never seen a Q in the wild.
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If they think the Q is where the "true long term growth is" then that would explain why they are so out of touch with the market.
QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The people buying the Q are mostly the small group of corporate loyalists who care more about brand name than they do IQ or convenience, and people who like it as a cute novelty.
Um, has it maybe occurred to you that you are not the market for Q, neither geographically nor demographically?
01-10-2015, 11:33 AM   #409
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QuoteOriginally posted by loganross Quote
Ricoh will keep the Pentax brand for OVF and DSLRs, and then expand Ricoh's successful and highly regarded GR family to compete with Sony E and Fuji. Of course, the new GR will incorporate Pentax technology such as image processing, SR and auto-focus. They will then offer an adapter for K mount, just as Sony does for A mount.
By what measure can we make the claim "successful and highly regarded GR family"?

01-10-2015, 12:18 PM   #410
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GR family : this indeed is pure speculation....
01-10-2015, 12:47 PM   #411
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QuoteOriginally posted by cxdoo Quote
Um, has it maybe occurred to you that you are not the market for Q, neither geographically nor demographically?
I understand completely that I'm not the target market. That doesn't change anything. It's still a novelty niche product, it will never be the "growth engine over the long term" as stated above regardless of my demographic. There are novelty items that are targeted at me geographically and demographically, and their are novelty items that are not targeted at my demographic or location. Regardless of who they are targeted at, they are still novelty products.
01-10-2015, 01:04 PM   #412
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I understand completely that I'm not the target market. That doesn't change anything. It's still a novelty niche product, it will never be the "growth engine over the long term" as stated above regardless of my demographic. There are novelty items that are targeted at me geographically and demographically, and their are novelty items that are not targeted at my demographic or location. Regardless of who they are targeted at, they are still novelty products.
Don't you think maybe people who study the market and are in the business might know more about the topic than you or I who are not?
01-10-2015, 01:07 PM   #413
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Someone on the communication chain overexaggerated, IMHO. I don't buy that Q will be the growth engine. It might be a growth engine, however - by supplying a steady income flux so necessary for further development. Perhaps it even is (it's quite successful in Japan, in 2012 all 3 Q models being in BCNRanking's top 20 MILC sales IIRC).
But obviously, it doesn't threaten neither the K-mount nor the 645 lines development. In a way, it's the best MILC companion for those SLR lines; as it doesn't require an extensive effort on the same level as a large sensor MILC.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
The Panasonic Lumix DM1 smartphone has a sensor that is almost 3x larger than a Q.
That's a kludge. Yuck.

01-10-2015, 01:44 PM   #414
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I understand completely that I'm not the target market.
But you still base your argument on personal anecdotes. My point was that Q being a non factor in your neck of the woods, all the while RP stresses Japan (and then Asia) as their priority, doesn't say much about its (non)success. As far as I know, it's moderately popular in Japan.

Accidentally, my personal experience is similar to yours; I've seen it in stores only and wouldn't buy it (I'd rather buy another K mount lens).
01-10-2015, 04:09 PM - 2 Likes   #415
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
Don't you think maybe people who study the market and are in the business might know more about the topic than you or I who are not?
I also know that these people are wrong just as often as they are right. Marketing and product development for high-tech products is basically roulette.
Let's look at PALM or Research In Motion. They had big marketing departments with lots of research. Motorola, Nokia, Blackberry all had their day as the top cell phone manufacturer, and then one day Apple showed up and blew them away. Netscape? AOL? Kodak?

Sony is a company that employs people to study the market and they have screwed it repeatedly. The A900 was an excellent camera, but Sony who dominates the professional HD market got smoked by the Canon and the 5DII because Sony didn't see the market for HD video in a DSLR. Sony introduced the NEX line as a upgrade for the consumer P&S. Cheap lenses and really bad menus, they never intended it to evolve into a semi-professional or professional system or they would have designed the mount a little larger to accept FF. They have admitted in interviews that they have been surprised by the demand for high end E-mount products. They have pulled resources away for A-mount development because of the unexpected success of the E & FE system. Sony has missed the boat repeatedly.

Do I think Ricoh has a good grasp of the camera market? No. Like Sony they seem to be learning by trial and error. and if Ricoh really does think the Q is THE growth engine of the future, then I think even less of their management.
01-10-2015, 05:30 PM   #416
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I also know that these people are wrong just as often as they are right. Marketing and product development for high-tech products is basically roulette.
It is then likely that you or me have far less sucessfull track record. After all you speak of 50% success rate. That's pretty good. Maybe for you or me it is more like 10% ?

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Let's look at PALM or Research In Motion. They had big marketing departments with lots of research. Motorola, Nokia, Blackberry all had their day as the top cell phone manufacturer, and then one day Apple showed up and blew them away. Netscape? AOL? Kodak?
This is life. You grow when you have a better idea/model/system than others and get it right but the next one with the next big thing replace you. Even facebook start to have issue convincings the young to use their website. Pentax had Pentaprism and TTL exposure and that was their strength. Even before digital there were already not the #1 anymore.

QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Sony introduced the NEX line as a upgrade for the consumer P&S. Cheap lenses and really bad menus, they never intended it to evolve into a semi-professional or professional system or they would have designed the mount a little larger to accept FF. They have admitted in interviews that they have been surprised by the demand for high end E-mount products. They have pulled resources away for A-mount development because of the unexpected success of the E & FE system. Sony has missed the boat repeatedly.
Sorry but E and FE mount are like FX/DX. This is the same mount. The FE lenses are made for FF image circle and A7 familly and E lenses are made for APSC image circle. but you can put natively FE lenses on E mount and E lenses on FE mount natively.

E mount was designed with FF in mind at least the image circle. I do think the registration distance was a bit too short for an FF mirroless but once they add an FF compatible FF mount in the wild they saw more value in extending it to have a greater echosystem than design something new.



QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Do I think Ricoh has a good grasp of the camera market? No. Like Sony they seem to be learning by trial and error. and if Ricoh really does think the Q is THE growth engine of the future, then I think even less of their management.
Be real, the guy said that to give trust in the Q mount system. No more, no less. Don't try to extrapolate what people think and how their will manager their entreprise based on one old interview.

As for your phone example. Until now all the advenced camera phone were a very low success. The issue with them is that there no real place to have even average zoom optics and that it make the phone form factor different and people don't buy it anymore.
01-10-2015, 06:49 PM   #417
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
It is then likely that you or me have far less sucessfull track record.
I have been is business for myself 20+ years. My personal track record is actually pretty good.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is life. You grow when you have a better idea/model/system than others and get it right but the next one with the next big thing replace you.
No. Its not life. Beretta has been in business since 1526 or almost 500 years. They have been owned by the same family the entire time. Companies don't have to fail or be replaced. Companies fail because the people who run them fail. Kodak didn't have to fail. Had they made the right decisions and the right investments (products) they would still be an industry leader.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Sorry but E and FE mount are like FX/DX. This is the same mount. The FE lenses are made for FF image circle and A7 familly and E lenses are made for APSC image circle. but you can put natively FE lenses on E mount and E lenses on FE mount natively.

E mount was designed with FF in mind at least the image circle. I do think the registration distance was a bit too short for an FF mirroless but once they add an FF compatible FF mount in the wild they saw more value in extending it to have a greater echo system than design something new.
I own a Sony A7m2. I'm well aware of the system and I never said they were different mounts. You are making thing up as you go along.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Don't try to extrapolate what people think and how their will manager their entreprise based on one old interview.
I didn't extrapolate anything. I quoted the statement as it was written and said that if it were true then I have even less confidence in the competency of Ricoh management. I personally don't think its true, because I don't think Ricoh is that stupid. Again you are making things up that I never said.
01-10-2015, 07:49 PM   #418
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
So with the tease or reveal of the new k-50 replacement we see a few glimpses of where Ricoh is going.

If they do a refresh of the k-3 (k-3II?) as some are anticipating, will some of those features such as WiFi and articulated screen appear in the new APS-C flagship (k-3II) or will they wait for the next release?

Shameless attempt at redirecting this thread back on topic....................
Plus better noise control and replace the darn parts that causes the mirror flap.
01-10-2015, 09:13 PM   #419
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
I think that Ricoh was not impressed by Pentax's mirrorless efforts when they took control. They quickly ditched the idea of specific lenses for the K-01 and gave it minimal promotion.
They "quickly ditched" their own GXR. So were they not impressed with their own efforts?
Yet they did come up with the blue K-01.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
They decided that the best they could do with Q was reposition it down market. Now it sells OK here in Japan, but it's a cheap camera.
The 08 Wide Zoom is by no means a cheap or downmarket lens. It has molded aspherics like the FA 31 Ltd, not the hybrids you got in the FA*24 or DA 15 Ltd.
QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
Personally, I'm not optimistic about the future of Q. They might persist with it, but in terms of resources I would consider it half a mount at best.
The wide zoom for the Q was given priority over the promised wide zoom for K-mount.
01-10-2015, 10:51 PM   #420
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QuoteOriginally posted by lytrytyr Quote
They "quickly ditched" their own GXR. So were they not impressed with their own efforts?
Yet they did come up with the blue K-01.


The 08 Wide Zoom is by no means a cheap or downmarket lens. It has molded aspherics like the FA 31 Ltd, not the hybrids you got in the FA*24 or DA 15 Ltd.

The wide zoom for the Q was given priority over the promised wide zoom for K-mount.
I know the 08 is said to be a very impressive little lens. But I think there is a mismatch between the prices they are selling the kits for (typically 30,000 yen or around $300 for a zoom kit) and the kind of prices they would need to sell specialised lenses at. I haven't seen many user reports or editorial reviews of the 08, which makes me think it isn't selling well. In a way, the 08 could be a test case. If a wide-angle zoom doesn't sell, then why should a telephoto macro do any better?

I think the fate of the GXR shows that Ricoh will eventually pull the plug on projects if they aren't working out. I wouldn't say they quickly ditched it, though. It was no sale for three years and still on display at CP+ 2013.

The Q will probably stay around as long as it keeps selling. They can put some minimal development into it by updating to newer sensor when they become available and refreshing the design. But I don't think it will ever build enough momentum among enthusiasts to support a varied system.
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