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01-01-2015, 04:01 PM - 2 Likes   #136
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
There is no sign that Ricoh understands the DSLR market at all.
Given the quality of the K-3 and 645z, I think Ricoh has at least a couple of competent people on staff. Hopefully they will hire more.

01-01-2015, 04:09 PM   #137
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
FF is not the determining factor. Value is.If I can get a K-3 at $800 and FF starts at $1,300 which one will sell more?
Here 2000€ FF DSLRs has sold much more than k-3.

What comes to determining factor how FF together with value ? In Finland it is possible to get 6D N + EF 50/1.8 II for 1085€. Price gap to 800€ K-3 is too small. FF is so hyped that it means more than other features to majority of the buyers.

Canon EOS 6D N (Ei Wi-Fi tai GPS) + EF 50/1,8 II Kaupan päälle! | Canon EOS 6DN on t
01-01-2015, 04:16 PM   #138
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
...In Finland it is possible to get 6D N + EF 50/1.8 II for 1085€. Price gap to 800€ K-3 is too small...
Considering this situation, one has to agree with those who claim that Pentax might not understand at least some markets...
01-01-2015, 04:56 PM   #139
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
Here 2000€ FF DSLRs has sold much more than k-3.

What comes to determining factor how FF together with value ? In Finland it is possible to get 6D N + EF 50/1.8 II for 1085€. Price gap to 800€ K-3 is too small. FF is so hyped that it means more than other features to majority of the buyers.

Canon EOS 6D N (Ei Wi-Fi tai GPS) + EF 50/1,8 II Kaupan päälle! | Canon EOS 6DN on t
The majority likely won't choose Pentax because they have never heard of it. The main market for Pentax remains Japan so far as I can see.

One unknown is whether there is much traction left in traditional camera systems of the Nikon or Canon kind. The systems are huge and must be cripplingly expensive to produce and sell. There aren't that many buyers around at this level, so perhaps the economics of the traditional camera system are becoming unworkable - all predicated on a market which no longer exists and simply too expensive to make business sense anyway. An alternative is smaller, intelligent (through software) and connected cameras targeted at specific purposes. For example, want the ultimate landscape camera? Buy a fixed-lens version of the 645z for half the price of the ILC version and get on with it. You'll want something high-class but pocketable for everyday (like an RX100), maybe something for street and your artful monochromes (like a GR) and maybe an all-in-one for travel and longer reach (like an FZ1000). For a canny company which can put these together as a family by virtue of shared software and interfaces, and perhaps optical characteristics ("Pentax colours", e.g.), that's four chances to sell one brand to one customer. The overall cost to the customer might well not be more than buying a high-end system camera and a whole bunch of expensive lenses, then hauling the whole lot around while perspiring freely and putting up with the inconvenience of changing lenses all the time. And the result for all but printed output wouldn't be noticeably superior to any of the other four single-purpose cameras.

I'd see this as just as plausible a scenario for the future as any other, for all but a tiny number of high-end specialists. What it might take, though, is for camera-makers to wake up big time to software and comms (mobile, etc.) which, alas, at present they seem unable to get their heads round. On verra.

01-01-2015, 04:59 PM   #140
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
Here 2000€ FF DSLRs has sold much more than k-3.

What comes to determining factor how FF together with value ? In Finland it is possible to get 6D N + EF 50/1.8 II for 1085€. Price gap to 800€ K-3 is too small. FF is so hyped that it means more than other features to majority of the buyers.
That stat is meaningless because the current installed base of Canikon users will ALWAYS outsell anything Pentax has.

To make your case you would have to have a Pentax FF model that TOOK customers away from Canikon.

How is that going to happen with the huge array of Canikon glass, especially long and wide zooms? How can Pentax convince someone to buy FF Pentax without the equivalent of, say, a 14-24/2.8? people buy a D750 to get the glass.

A LOT of FF buyers have size of camera (and lens) regrets. I think that is why Fuji and Oly still sell and reinvested ins smaller sensors; to be the camera brand that isn't putting FF at higher prices into bulk bodies.
01-01-2015, 05:24 PM   #141
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FYI (but no surprise): I was visiting a photo-equipment news website when a pop-up appeared that asked "Which camera brand would you consider buying?" Choices (not in order): Canon, Nikon, Sony, Olympus, Fuji, Panasonic, other. Probably a come-on from a dealer, but all the same....
01-01-2015, 05:35 PM   #142
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QuoteOriginally posted by Flugelbinder Quote
Considering this situation, one has to agree with those who claim that Pentax might not understand at least some markets...
I'm not sure Ricoh understands its own market or identity. People say Ricoh wants to be a niche company, but they don't act like a niche company. I don't see a common vision like you see with Fuji (who is a niche manufacturer). Ricoh is all over the board with styles and performance. Canon is all over the board too, but they aren't a niche company. All of the Fuji X-mount products look like they are all in the same family. K-mount is a collection of different styles. The Pentax/Hoya/Ricoh changes have left the company with a line of lenses that don't match and lack a uniform product line. The bodies are the same way. The K-01, K-30/50, KS-1, K-3 are all over the board when it comes to styles, controls, target market. Hardly looks like a company with a niche target market.

Ricoh needs to thin the heard if they are going to be a successful niche company. They need to focus and develop a uniform product line that reflects their vision. I was hoping the HD DA 20-40mm LTD reflected the style of lenses that Ricoh was going to develop going forward, but then they showed the generic unmarked black plastic looking tube that I assume is the 70-200mm at Photokina. Right now Ricoh has DA, DA*, DA Limited, FA, D-FA, & FA Limited. No uniformity in motor/drive type, coatings, weather sealing, format..... Its a miss matched collection. The entire line needs to be updated and thinned out.
01-01-2015, 05:39 PM   #143
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V-A-V having low volume sales. Hasselblad and Linhof are still in business and still introducing new cameras with outrageous prices (not sure about the most recent Linhof digital, but the digital 'blads run $35,000-45,000 US). How many units does each company sell in a year? Rodenstock still makes view camera lenses at outrageous prices (how many 23mm wide angle optics at over $7,000 have they sold?) Then again, who do these manufacturers have as competitors for their specific product features?

01-01-2015, 05:40 PM   #144
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Then, perhaps Ricoh doesn't want to be a niche company.
It wasn't plastic looking.
01-01-2015, 06:19 PM   #145
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Someone has been depressive for several weeks.

Be patient - Just as the sun rises and sets on Ayers Rock he'll cycle back sooner or later.
I agree I may be somewhat wrong — for, who knows what will Ricoh unveil in 2 months, right?

From that point, we are all wrong, and that is not the answer. The last Photokina, and what was unveiled in the last 15 months, have left me speechless. In the core enthusiast show on this planet, Ricoh comes in to show ... a plastic K-S1 toy for its K-mount? For the work-horse mount in which its K-3 outsells in one month the entire yearly supply of the 645Z? And they come to mock enthusiasts with reheated coloured puffery?

They are either bold, or totally careless. Or perhaps there is another explanation for Ricoh's "strategy":


Last edited by Uluru; 01-01-2015 at 06:28 PM.
01-01-2015, 06:21 PM   #146
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I'm not sure Ricoh understands its own market or identity. People say Ricoh wants to be a niche company, but they don't act like a niche company. I don't see a common vision like you see with Fuji (who is a niche manufacturer). Ricoh is all over the board with styles and performance. Canon is all over the board too, but they aren't a niche company. All of the Fuji X-mount products look like they are all in the same family. K-mount is a collection of different styles. The Pentax/Hoya/Ricoh changes have left the company with a line of lenses that don't match and lack a uniform product line. The bodies are the same way. The K-01, K-30/50, KS-1, K-3 are all over the board when it comes to styles, controls, target market. Hardly looks like a company with a niche target market.

Ricoh needs to thin the heard if they are going to be a successful niche company. They need to focus and develop a uniform product line that reflects their vision. I was hoping the HD DA 20-40mm LTD reflected the style of lenses that Ricoh was going to develop going forward, but then they showed the generic unmarked black plastic looking tube that I assume is the 70-200mm at Photokina. Right now Ricoh has DA, DA*, DA Limited, FA, D-FA, & FA Limited. No uniformity in motor/drive type, coatings, weather sealing, format..... Its a miss matched collection. The entire line needs to be updated and thinned out.
The niche seems to be producing things I want to buy. When the 20-40 was released it coincided with my desire for something a bit longer than the 12-24 that I own, but not as long as the 50 that I own. I suspect I will own it one day.

Ricoh's strategy is to sell product at a profit. In today's market no one knows what that consists of.
01-01-2015, 06:30 PM   #147
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If Pentax/Ricoh wants ( pretends ) to be a niche company they have to forget about all that non sense small sensor cameras.. Why would anybody buy an small sensor "dslr" camera if they can buy a cellphone that can do almost the same for what they want the "small sensor camera", people looking for small sensors are the ones that dont really care about their photos as long as they can take it and share it on facebook, they wont buy lenses, or accesories, or look for new stuffs cuz they will never be that much into photography.

On the other hand if they focus on people that WILL spend money on their cameras, lenses, accesories, workshops, etc.. that will make some profit. Good quality APS-C cameras like the K50 and K3.. a MF camera like they have with the 645Z .. and a good FF to compente specially with the A7ii, D750 is all that company need.. forget about leds, colors, faces, Hello Kitty and small sensors or whatever they come out after a crazy meeting smoking opio.. A serious company focus their efford on serious costumers not on people looking for "toys".

What i see here is that even already pentax users are loosing their confidence with the brand, many people say its doomed, many people say they will never do, many people see the brand stock in nothing.. and thats not good.. not good at all if they want to play some good role in the camera market.. When they released the KS1 what was everybodys thoughts?? most of the people was " what is this fu&ˆng Shi%#??? " .. because people is expecting serious machines, not colorful toys... who was amazed by the K01?? perhaps your 10 year old childs, and then what??

They are still on time to become big, but if have to be soon, really soon, and show signs of improvements. When they start taking photography serously and concentrate their GREAT ideas in serous products ( K50, K3, 645Z and of course FF ).. until then more and more people will move away from pentax and more and more people will continue choosing other brands as their systems.
01-01-2015, 06:35 PM   #148
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I'm not sure Ricoh understands its own market or identity. People say Ricoh wants to be a niche company, but they don't act like a niche company. I don't see a common vision like you see with Fuji (who is a niche manufacturer). Ricoh is all over the board with styles and performance. Canon is all over the board too, but they aren't a niche company. All of the Fuji X-mount products look like they are all in the same family. K-mount is a collection of different styles. The Pentax/Hoya/Ricoh changes have left the company with a line of lenses that don't match and lack a uniform product line. The bodies are the same way. The K-01, K-30/50, KS-1, K-3 are all over the board when it comes to styles, controls, target market. Hardly looks like a company with a niche target market.

Ricoh needs to thin the heard if they are going to be a successful niche company. They need to focus and develop a uniform product line that reflects their vision. I was hoping the HD DA 20-40mm LTD reflected the style of lenses that Ricoh was going to develop going forward, but then they showed the generic unmarked black plastic looking tube that I assume is the 70-200mm at Photokina. Right now Ricoh has DA, DA*, DA Limited, FA, D-FA, & FA Limited. No uniformity in motor/drive type, coatings, weather sealing, format..... Its a miss matched collection. The entire line needs to be updated and thinned out.
Thumbs up. You have summed it up well. Prune the nonsense, let K-01 an K-S1 nightmares never happen again. Profile the brand into a quality, top enthusiast gear. Does not need to be pro at all; catering for enthusiasts and not cheating on them or fooling them around will help Pentax brand stand for a long time. Reclaim the best of legacy.

However, not a single sign since 2011 shows Ricoh is aiming in that direction. Despite the fact that enthusiasts in this forum and elsewhere have perfectly predicted how the market will shrink, react to mirrorless, and how others are already preparing and profiling. Ricoh has made Pentax into an incomprehensible jumble of a brand.
01-02-2015, 12:28 AM   #149
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
That stat is meaningless because the current installed base of Canikon users will ALWAYS outsell anything Pentax has.

To make your case you would have to have a Pentax FF model that TOOK customers away from Canikon.
Pentax does not need to outsell Canikon. Not even close. First thing is to offer FF model to stop long time Pentax users left the brand.

QuoteQuote:
How is that going to happen with the huge array of Canikon glass, especially long and wide zooms? How can Pentax convince someone to buy FF Pentax without the equivalent of, say, a 14-24/2.8? people buy a D750 to get the glass
Pentax does not need to create Canikon glass. Where Pentax is different is lenses. There are so many Pentaxians with bags full of k-mount FF lenses that the first generation FF Pentax will sell with no problem. And if needed it should be no problem for Pentax to modernize FA 20-35, FA* 28-70 and 80-200/2.8 if they have courage to do it. To me it seems like the lack of courage has been the problem.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
A LOT of FF buyers have size of camera (and lens) regrets. I think that is why Fuji and Oly still sell and reinvested ins smaller sensors; to be the camera brand that isn't putting FF at higher prices into bulk bodies.
Look like market is going to direction where people buy FF system for serious work/hobby AND mirrorless with one or two pancakes to carry always with them. Pentax is in bad position in the middle where cameras are too big OR sensor is too small.
01-02-2015, 12:40 AM   #150
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
If Pentax/Ricoh wants ( pretends ) to be a niche company they have to forget about all that non sense small sensor cameras.. Why would anybody buy an small sensor "dslr" camera if they can buy a cellphone that can do almost the same for what they want the "small sensor camera", people looking for small sensors are the ones that dont really care about their photos as long as they can take it and share it on facebook, they wont buy lenses, or accesories, or look for new stuffs cuz they will never be that much into photography.

On the other hand if they focus on people that WILL spend money on their cameras, lenses, accesories, workshops, etc.. that will make some profit. Good quality APS-C cameras like the K50 and K3.. a MF camera like they have with the 645Z .. and a good FF to compente specially with the A7ii, D750 is all that company need.. forget about leds, colors, faces, Hello Kitty and small sensors or whatever they come out after a crazy meeting smoking opio.. A serious company focus their efford on serious costumers not on people looking for "toys".

What i see here is that even already pentax users are loosing their confidence with the brand, many people say its doomed, many people say they will never do, many people see the brand stock in nothing.. and thats not good.. not good at all if they want to play some good role in the camera market.. When they released the KS1 what was everybodys thoughts?? most of the people was " what is this fu&ˆng Shi%#??? " .. because people is expecting serious machines, not colorful toys... who was amazed by the K01?? perhaps your 10 year old childs, and then what??

They are still on time to become big, but if have to be soon, really soon, and show signs of improvements. When they start taking photography serously and concentrate their GREAT ideas in serous products ( K50, K3, 645Z and of course FF ).. until then more and more people will move away from pentax and more and more people will continue choosing other brands as their systems.
Become big?

In a shrinking market?

Fuji and Oly and Canon have seen their camera divisions become footnote subsets of their larger corporations. There is no "big" in photography anymore...except for Apple.

The D750 and A7s sell not very many units. You would be surprised at how small the worldwide market actually is for pricey cameras.

Fuji and Pentax and Oly (and more recently if the rumours are true, both Nikon and Canon) now see that large cameras are not selling well in the age of the miniaturized smartphone and mobile OS.

Again, a lecture about value. If you can get a K-3 in 3 years at half what it is now, why would you spend 2x $ more for FF with no appreciable increase in usability of the shots given that 99% are posted online. These gigantic system cameras (like the 645z) are becoming more and more niche—not "big"—every quarter. There was a time when a guy on every block in suburban America had a 120 film camera. Not in the digital era. Not for a long while.

What people forget is that the heyday of cameras past people who took photography a little more seriously and who drove the market (fathers, mostly) bought more than one camera. Now, in the days where the smartphone camera is taking up serious market space for disposable dollars, there is simply less $$$ left over for large system cameras. Period. When consumers spend increasing amounts on phones and phablets with cameras in them they will get a second camera...it just won't be a D750. It is far more likely to be a D3200. That's all $$$ left over in the dominant middle class market. People jus don't have time for photography like they used to. Even Adobe is struggling with keeping people in front of their PCs editing.

The high-margin cameras make decent profits, but they are too costly to increase the user base.For every P&S sale lost to Apple, they might claw back 1/12 that revenue from larger, system cameras. So far, revenues have been stalled to negative for the last 12 Q's in the camera industry.

The sweet spot for the dedicated optical companies is going to be sub-$1,000, more compact system cameras, with larger sensors, that play real nice with wi-fi and mobile OS's. You're not going to see the super-tele lenses in that market, nor the fast wides. You will see pretty much what Pentax, Oly, and Fuji have now (but with lower prices). The real problem with FF is that a small user base will clamour for a huge list of lenses that Pentax could never achieve in a shrinking market. Then, if they do not get those lenses, they will leave the brand anyway. So people who complain about brand abandonment basically want a Canikon clone. Many of them were destined to leave anyway because what they really want is everything Canikon has but with a Pentax label. Widespread FF is going to depend on price and probably a compromised compact format with a LOT less lenses and a much stronger emphasis on networking. You have to remember that most camera sales in the future are going to be into households with no personal computer. The maximum processing evolving in the home market worldwide is mobile OSs. You see this with stalled personal (non-business) computer sales. They are not even keeping up with population growth. Where your home darkroom goes, so goes your camera industry.

---------- Post added 01-02-15 at 03:49 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
Pentax does not need to create Canikon glass. Where Pentax is different is lenses. There are so many Pentaxians with bags full of k-mount FF lenses that the first generation FF Pentax will sell with no problem. And if needed it should be no problem for Pentax to modernize FA 20-35, FA* 28-70 and 80-200/2.8 if they have courage to do it. To me it seems like the lack of courage has been the problem.
That is a recipe to lose huge amounts of money.

You realize the margin on a FF camera is maybe 15%? But on glass it is more like 30%? Lens sales drive at least 50% of the revenues in the industry.

All those old lenses are actually a problem. They deter people from buying new glass, without which, there can be no new camera body. The margins are just not there.

None of the lenses you indicate, BTW, are "different". They are almost exactly like what Canikon and Sony have. An 80-200/2.8? That's a huge lens in Nikonland. Extremely heavy. It's a tripod beast. Nikon has mostly replaced it with the 70-200/2.8.

In order to do FF Pentax would have to have at 1/3 of their current base decide to upgrade to FF prices for BOTH new bodies AND lenses. How realistic is that?
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