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12-30-2014, 02:56 PM   #76
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I agree that Ricoh needs to do a lot of work to develop competitive FF lenses, but that's no excuse. Sony and Fuji also have a lot of work to do with lens development. They have to start somewhere, and if they aren't willing to invest in this then they need to get out of the business. The A7m2 is selling for $1,600 which is basically what the K-3 was selling for when it was first released. If anything the price of FF bodies have fallen to the point that they are putting pressure on APS-C. The Canon 7DII is selling for $1,800.00.

What production facilities would Ricoh have to change? The K-mount is already a FF mount, and volume of a FF body would be many times higher than the 645z which they had no problem producing.
I agree they are putting pressure on high-end APS-C. Read the interview. It is what Pentax Ricoh reps say as well.

The bigger issue is bringing in a whole FF K-mount with sales declining overall in this category. The market is not growing.

DSLRs have a future due to their versatility when they have:

1) A decent optical array just to compete. Primes are NOT going to sell a DSLR system. They must have wide and long zooms.

2) Price price price (FF or smaller). The pressure on price points due to smartphones is reverberating through the camera biz.

3) Those FF bodies you note are not increasing volumes. Consumers are going smaller and not larger. Even the more compact Sony's are not big sellers.

The interview pretty clearly talks about the marketwise/share barrier. Pentax Ricoh seem to be doing OK by NOT getting into FF, not in an industry that may be dogged by a secular smaller market size.

Once again, the body is NOT the problem. It is getting a proper lens array out the door with only 2.5 assembly lines and the obsolete need to keep the APS-C and 645 and Q going as well.

Given the size of the FF market, people leaving to Nikon etc. are perhaps not your cuts,mer anyway. Fuji and Olympus face the same issues and are hanging on without FF, even pushing the boundaries, this dispute the fact their camera biz are now small players in their corporate environments.

Without the sales volumes and brand identity of P&S market the dedicated optical companies are struggling to transition consumers from integrated devices. The Japanese manufacturers are particularly obstinate at network integration and mobile OS compatibility despite this DC interview addressing thee issue. It is almost as if Pentax Ricoh are pretending they do not have to alter their product lines and tech to accommodate a new reality. It is an endemic problem in Japanese tech across the board.

---------- Post added 12-30-14 at 06:02 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Canon, Nikon and Sony have access to parent-company capital. Fuji and Olympus don't have legacy dSLR production facilities to amortize (and Oly might have some access to Sony capital). Leica is whatever Leica is. Apple and Samsung are massive disruptors.

Where does that leave Ricoh Imaging?

Can Pentax be the poor man's Leica? Can Pentax be the poor man's Hassy and let the halo shine down on everything else?
Ricoh Imaging with Pentax is in the same camp as Canon and Nikon; a legacy optical company trying to make a go of it when the integrated, disruptive, OS-driven, network-centric paradigm is forefront.

Apple's high margins are putting margin squeezes on the Leica's and Nikon's which results in the latter having cost-cutting leading to engineering issues. Their product cycles are trying to keep up and in the fallout they are making errors, despite their pedigrees otherwise.

12-30-2014, 03:43 PM - 1 Like   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote

Market may be tiny, but it is not the body only which makes the profit. When Pentax is not having FF:

- They will not sell any lenses or accessories to non existing camera.
- They will not sell any lens, camera or accessory anymore to those who left the brand due lack of FF body.
- They will not sell any or many items to those who still use Pentax but has decided not to update until there is a FF body.
- They will sell less APS-C cameras and lenses because many hesitates to buy first DSLR from the system which does not have FF body. I have seen this.

Also those who sell their Pentax and move to other system decrease Pentax sales by increasing items in used market.
I totally agree with this. I can even dare to say that without a FF camera, and a good video oriented DSLR (FF or APS-C), Pentax will go down. Slower or faster, but down. And both camera are desired now - of course, not by everyone, but by a big number of users, who other way, will leave the ship in bigger and bigger number. And they will flood the secondhand market with lenses and cameras, and the sales of new ones will drop dramatically.

I hope (still) that the beginning of 2015 will bring some good news.
12-30-2014, 03:58 PM - 2 Likes   #78
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Pentax "sin" in the past was "waiting" for the right time, because of that thinking they lost the FF DSLR market way to easy against Canikon.. are they going to keep doing the same mistakes? .. the time is now to jump into the mirrorless FF body, is a growing market were Canikons are not playing ( yet ) so why not?? Is Pentax going to do the same mistake? wait for the right time? :/ I dont care if is a normal DSLR or a Mirrorless as long as i can shoot with a FF sensor and at least have the K3 features ( with some improvements ).. we dont need a top ultra NASA develepment camera, we need a camera that have good features, great price, and great sensor.

I still hope too.
12-30-2014, 04:24 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Given the size of the FF market, people leaving to Nikon etc. are perhaps not your cuts,mer anyway. Fuji and Olympus face the same issues and are hanging on without FF, even pushing the boundaries, this dispute the fact their camera biz are now small players in their corporate environments.
But the Fuji and Olympus MILCs are not built on a FF lens mount like the K-mount. Those customers are buying into a system designed specifically for the smaller sensor. As long as Ricoh is using a FF mount the expectation will be for a FF body. It will always be the elephant in the room. Lenses like the DA* 200mm are simply re-badged FF lenses.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
The bigger issue is bringing in a whole FF K-mount with sales declining overall in this category. The market is not growing.
I agree. I have said many times that expanding into a contracting market is very risky and is going to take a lot of money, marketing, and time. This is why I have said that Ricoh needs to look at what Fuji, Sony, & Olympus are doing well and produce a FF MILC that blends the strengths of these systems with a new mount. There is more market for Ricoh in MILC than DSLRs. A digital Pentax LX with a new mount. The money is in the glass and Ricoh needs to sell glass. I have been using the 31mm LTD on my A7m2 the last few weeks and with focus peaking and magnification it is rather easy to get sharp focus in decent light. I could just as easily be using it on a Pentax D-LX.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Primes are NOT going to sell a DSLR system.
But they would sell a compact MILC like a Pentax D-LX.

QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Those FF bodies you note are not increasing volumes. Consumers are going smaller and not larger. Even the more compact Sony's are not big sellers.
They are not, but they are selling well enough that Sony has switched resources away from A-mount and over to FE-mount to meet demand. As the lens line-up expands they will attract more buyers. Because so many different photographers can use so many different lenses on the E-mount they have attracted a lot of people from other lines. Something Ricoh/Pentax has really struggled to do.

Photokina 2014: An interview with Sony Japan ? Mirrorless innovation, new lenses, and more! | MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews

Mathieu: It has been almost one year since the release of the Sony A7/r. Did this new system have the success Sony had hoped for?

Nogami: From a reputation point of view, very much so. It really did more than we expected. From a business point of view, because of this price point, it is of course not the kind of product that sells to millions but it is on track. The Alpha 7 really changed the position of mirrorless in my understanding, because mirrorless has been thought of as kind of inferior to an SLR, but this Alpha 7 series changed peopleís mindset. So thatís why from this point of view, the Alpha 7 series is a big success for us.

Mathieu: Mirrorless cameras are proving they can do very well in a professional environment. Take for example the a6000 and its autofocus capabilities. Do you think that mirrorless cameras are completely ready for professional use?

Nogami: Yes. But you know what, professional photographers normally use several camerasĖone for one project, maybe two for another. So they are not throwing away one camera when they take a new one. Canon users and Nikon users started using the A7 as a second or third camera. And the good thing is that our cameras can use their lenses with an adapter. So this is the way the current situation has evolved so far. But still itís not taking over the main camera position yet. When we introduced the RX1, we seeded the product to professionals and they loved the concept very much, and they are still using it as sort of a third or second camera. And Alpha 7 is more or less an RX1 with an interchangeable-lens.

12-30-2014, 04:33 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My K-01 / DA40 Ltd.is actually my most-used k-mount camera. Most people who actually have one (whether bought new or as deals) actually think it's a much better camera than the initial hurricane of condemnation had intimated it would be.

But that's fine with me. I'm happy to go about with my little secret in my jacket pocket
Sigh, I'm still kind of sad I let my white K-01 go.
12-30-2014, 04:43 PM - 1 Like   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
But the Fuji and Olympus MILCs are not built on a FF lens mount like the K-mount. Those customers are buying into a system designed specifically for the smaller sensor. As long as Ricoh is using a FF mount the expectation will be for a FF body. It will always be the elephant in the room. Lenses like the DA* 200mm are simply re-badged FF lenses.


I agree. I have said many times that expanding into a contracting market is very risky and is going to take a lot of money, marketing, and time. This is why I have said that Ricoh needs to look at what Fuji, Sony, & Olympus are doing well and produce a FF MILC that blends the strengths of these systems with a new mount. There is more market for Ricoh in MILC than DSLRs. A digital Pentax LX with a new mount. The money is in the glass and Ricoh needs to sell glass. I have been using the 31mm LTD on my A7m2 the last few weeks and with focus peaking and magnification it is rather easy to get sharp focus in decent light. I could just as easily be using it on a Pentax D-LX.


But they would sell a compact MILC like a Pentax D-LX.


They are not, but they are selling well enough that Sony has switched resources away from A-mount and over to FE-mount to meet demand. As the lens line-up expands they will attract more buyers. Because so many different photographers can use so many different lenses on the E-mount they have attracted a lot of people from other lines. Something Ricoh/Pentax has really struggled to do.

Photokina 2014: An interview with Sony Japan ? Mirrorless innovation, new lenses, and more! | MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews

Mathieu: It has been almost one year since the release of the Sony A7/r. Did this new system have the success Sony had hoped for?

Nogami: From a reputation point of view, very much so. It really did more than we expected. From a business point of view, because of this price point, it is of course not the kind of product that sells to millions but it is on track. The Alpha 7 really changed the position of mirrorless in my understanding, because mirrorless has been thought of as kind of inferior to an SLR, but this Alpha 7 series changed people’s mindset. So that’s why from this point of view, the Alpha 7 series is a big success for us.

Mathieu: Mirrorless cameras are proving they can do very well in a professional environment. Take for example the a6000 and its autofocus capabilities. Do you think that mirrorless cameras are completely ready for professional use?

Nogami: Yes. But you know what, professional photographers normally use several cameras–one for one project, maybe two for another. So they are not throwing away one camera when they take a new one. Canon users and Nikon users started using the A7 as a second or third camera. And the good thing is that our cameras can use their lenses with an adapter. So this is the way the current situation has evolved so far. But still it’s not taking over the main camera position yet. When we introduced the RX1, we seeded the product to professionals and they loved the concept very much, and they are still using it as sort of a third or second camera. And Alpha 7 is more or less an RX1 with an interchangeable-lens.
Sounds like there are an awful lot of elephants in the room by now - FF, MILCs, capital requirements and North American sales are just the first four enormous tuskers harrumphing around on Ricoh's sofas. Pretty soon even the elephants will start complaining that it's pretty crowded in there. "When the room is full of elephants, the wise man closes the door and tiptoes away" - Confucius. Seriously, without a sense that they've staked out a territory and have some clear goals, I don't think Ricoh can expect much confidence from consumers or the retail trade. I mean, why take a chance on Ricoh when you don't have to with, er, certain other brands? That's the problem, imho. As you suggested in another post, if Ricoh don't want to saddle up and ride then they will end up leaving the business anyway because the business will leave them. All a bit of a mystery really. Maybe mystery is a fifth elephant in the room ... "When even the elephants complain that the room is full, the wise man jumps out the window" ...
12-30-2014, 09:52 PM - 1 Like   #82
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
But the Fuji and Olympus MILCs are not built on a FF lens mount like the K-mount. Those customers are buying into a system designed specifically for the smaller sensor. As long as Ricoh is using a FF mount the expectation will be for a FF body. It will always be the elephant in the room. Lenses like the DA* 200mm are simply re-badged FF lenses.


I agree. I have said many times that expanding into a contracting market is very risky and is going to take a lot of money, marketing, and time. This is why I have said that Ricoh needs to look at what Fuji, Sony, & Olympus are doing well and produce a FF MILC that blends the strengths of these systems with a new mount. There is more market for Ricoh in MILC than DSLRs. A digital Pentax LX with a new mount. The money is in the glass and Ricoh needs to sell glass. I have been using the 31mm LTD on my A7m2 the last few weeks and with focus peaking and magnification it is rather easy to get sharp focus in decent light. I could just as easily be using it on a Pentax D-LX.


But they would sell a compact MILC like a Pentax D-LX.


They are not, but they are selling well enough that Sony has switched resources away from A-mount and over to FE-mount to meet demand. As the lens line-up expands they will attract more buyers. Because so many different photographers can use so many different lenses on the E-mount they have attracted a lot of people from other lines. Something Ricoh/Pentax has really struggled to do.

Photokina 2014: An interview with Sony Japan ? Mirrorless innovation, new lenses, and more! | MirrorLessons - The Best Mirrorless Camera Reviews

Mathieu: It has been almost one year since the release of the Sony A7/r. Did this new system have the success Sony had hoped for?

Nogami: From a reputation point of view, very much so. It really did more than we expected. From a business point of view, because of this price point, it is of course not the kind of product that sells to millions but it is on track. The Alpha 7 really changed the position of mirrorless in my understanding, because mirrorless has been thought of as kind of inferior to an SLR, but this Alpha 7 series changed people’s mindset. So that’s why from this point of view, the Alpha 7 series is a big success for us.

Mathieu: Mirrorless cameras are proving they can do very well in a professional environment. Take for example the a6000 and its autofocus capabilities. Do you think that mirrorless cameras are completely ready for professional use?

Nogami: Yes. But you know what, professional photographers normally use several cameras–one for one project, maybe two for another. So they are not throwing away one camera when they take a new one. Canon users and Nikon users started using the A7 as a second or third camera. And the good thing is that our cameras can use their lenses with an adapter. So this is the way the current situation has evolved so far. But still it’s not taking over the main camera position yet. When we introduced the RX1, we seeded the product to professionals and they loved the concept very much, and they are still using it as sort of a third or second camera. And Alpha 7 is more or less an RX1 with an interchangeable-lens.
So what if Fuji and Oly are not FF-capable?

Clearly their brain trusts (and Pentax Ricoh so far) look at their consumer base and know that the sub-$1,500 price point = almost all the revenues. And that's a kit. That is where the consumers are regardless of legacy mount issues. No system can really get there at FF sensor prices.

Fuji has been focussed but Sony is all over the map...and losing money, I might add. Fuji's not doing so hot either, nor Oly, but no one is doing well right now because consumer tastes are shifting. I see little love for Sony and the only reason they post strong sales is by the shotgun approach. A few hits, a lot of misses. In coherent lens strategy. Really good high-end compacts, but a pretty much abandoned DSLR line and translucent mirror effort.

You argue that Pentax needs FF because the K-mount is engineered that way, but then point to the success of Sony who have created/ignored mounts like crazy lately.

Talk of mirrorless and professionals is silly because of all markets pro is the one most in trouble. Most of all, Sony hasn't a dedicated optics structure, which for pros (those left) is everything. Also, no mirrorless system can do what DSLRs can with versatility, like even faster AF, long zooms, phenomenal wide angles, macro, flash systems, etc. DSLR's are not legacy yet, but Pentax cannot issue FF DSLR and grow the market. Even the OP interview here basically acknowledges the market reality via consumer choice. It is a conundrum for Pentax to divert resources to FF for fewer customers than if they stay APS-C only. It all has to do with price points.

The silver lining is that DSLR makers are likely to be forced to drop prices and that may drag FF sensor prices down lower. System buy-in for FF is still too high for Joe Prosumer hobbyist.

The last blurbs we had from Pentax Ricoh stood behind the prism, not the EVF. We are not likely to see FF MILC from this company unless others blood the market first. Sony's A-series are doing....OK. I see them as a lot of seined system cameras but they do not appear to be creating a dedicated mount to rival Canikon.
12-30-2014, 10:46 PM   #83
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The question is whether a FF DSLR would make money. I don't think so in the current market. It is crowded. Ricoh is wondering the same thing.

There is no plan or direction in the current market. The longstanding sources of revenue are collapsing. In a normal market like this half the players would have disappeared by now. Surviving is the goal, and I don't think the big guys have yet realized that they can't act to protect a cash stream because it likely will disappear.

Two facts. $1200 is alot of money and above that the market is going to be relatively small. The 645z is a success and a money maker.

Another ugly thing is that the low end FF could be knee capped by an aps-c sensor with a couple stops better noise characteristics. Sure the FF sensors would improve but at one point there are diminishing returns, especially if no one is getting any return on their investments in that segment.

I still think that Ricoh has carved out a pretty good niche with a very nicely appointed aps-c, weather proof lenses along with the nice limiteds. I suspect they are paying their way. And the unique 645z, a market segment they define and own. The first having been abandoned somewhat to drive buyers into FF, the second too small for the big guys, as well as potentially diluting their other high end offerings.

12-31-2014, 01:56 AM   #84
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
The question is whether a FF DSLR would make money. I don't think so in the current market. It is crowded. Ricoh is wondering the same thing.
DSLR sales are still a lot bigger than mirrorless sales and there are more brands making mirrorless than making DSLR today. Which one you think is more crowded ?

The main idea of mirrorless is shorter register distance which allows smaller bodies and wide angle lenses. If FF Pentax is mirrorless it should have no k-mount because there is no advantage in mirrorless with long register distance. The problem in this case is they must start from zero user base while user base for k-mount DSLR still exist.

EDIT: Also when we think whether a FF DSLR would make money or not we need to view profit as whole including all the indirect sales it generates. Camera, accessory and lens sales for those who did not left the brand because they finally got Pentax FF DSLR, first camera purchaces who dares to buy Pentax because there is update path to FF etc.

FF body may be unprofitable but at the same time it can make whole Pentax more profitable.

Last edited by Jyrkira; 12-31-2014 at 02:43 AM.
12-31-2014, 03:31 AM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
DSLR sales are still a lot bigger than mirrorless sales and there are more brands making mirrorless than making DSLR today. Which one you think is more crowded ?

The main idea of mirrorless is shorter register distance which allows smaller bodies and wide angle lenses. If FF Pentax is mirrorless it should have no k-mount because there is no advantage in mirrorless with long register distance. The problem in this case is they must start from zero user base while user base for k-mount DSLR still exist.

EDIT: Also when we think whether a FF DSLR would make money or not we need to view profit as whole including all the indirect sales it generates. Camera, accessory and lens sales for those who did not left the brand because they finally got Pentax FF DSLR, first camera purchaces who dares to buy Pentax because there is update path to FF etc.

FF body may be unprofitable but at the same time it can make whole Pentax more profitable.
There are a lot of assumptions in all this talk of FF or No FF, and I'm not sure they can be relied on. In fact, I suspect many common assumptions about the camera industry have been tossed into the air by one of the numerous elephants that seem to infest the rooms where cameras are discussed

For example, how many people really choose a camera brand because it offers an upgrade path to larger formats? The answer might be not that many these days - speculation, of course. Why? Because more people are switching instead to using different brands/cameras for different purposes. And since low-end FF is effectively now the same price as higher-end APS-C, what is there to upgrade to anyway?

Are there any longer any price points at all? Where I live, current cameras, last year's models, discount cameras and factory refurb cameras (I'm seeing more of these on offer) are all jumbled up at all sorts of prices. There is almost no such thing as a full-price camera any more.

Do consumers see any difference between a DSLR and a mirrorless camera? An enthusiast might but a consumer might not know what the enthusiast is talking about. A consumer might see instead big/small, complicated/simpler, costly/affordable, ghastly grandad fodder versus something I might be prepared to be seen with.

Are cameras that aren't connected and which don't work in a similar way to smartphones a complete dead end now? It's beginning to look like it. The one thing I hear from extended family (hardly any of whom are interested in photography beyond family/holidays) is "No, I don't want that, it is far too complicated for me". This is said of the kind of camera that most enthusiasts would consider fairly simple. And it is said by people who would like a camera and can easily afford to buy a decent one - but the cameras themselves are mostly a complete turnoff.

Does the camera-maker's involvement end the moment you click the shutter? That's another widespread assumption. Thus the mainstream camera-makers offer the user no help when it comes to getting their shots into print, onto the web or into other media large and small. Most of them don't even show the user how to get the best from their camera and/or learn a bit about photography. Their websites are third-party boilerplate marketing stuff.

All just speculation, of course. But the result is that it really doesn't matter whether Pentax or anyone else makes an FF camera, and APS-C one or even a 1-incher. If the camera is based on assumptions which are a decade at least behind the times and still rooted in the analogue era, sales will continue to tank. So, imho, the best choice might be to become completely brand agnostic. Select what you need for a particular purpose, no more, and don't get sucked into any brand.

Last edited by mecrox; 12-31-2014 at 08:50 AM.
12-31-2014, 06:13 AM - 3 Likes   #86
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A new lens mount (=shorter mount-to-sensor distance) would/should have all Pentax owners crying FOUL! UNLESS they also provide a simple spacer-adapter to mount any/all FF K-mount lenses with full transfer of the lens' inherent functions (aperture information transfer and stop-down plus auto-focus). What Pentax owner-user will purchase any body that obsoletes their entire lens collection? Might as well go to Canikon where there is a vast array of manufacturer and after-market FF lenses both new and used. IF Pentax introduces a FF body, it MUST be compatible with K-mount, and perhaps have a switchable sensor that can be changed to record APS-C with the flip of a switch which also either inserts a frame into the viewfinder or automatically crops the transmitted view.
Considering the number of in-production FF Pentax-made lenses versus APS-C Pentax-made lenses, they would be mad to introduce a body that could not use the latter. No potential buyer will be happy with depending on the supply of used Pentax FF AF lenses plus the after market offerings from Sigma/Tamron/Zeiss/Rikenon, etc.
12-31-2014, 08:06 AM   #87
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I'm not sure if abandoning the K-mount would be a good option for Pentax. From what I know with Olympus, is they asked some of their testers if they will go full m4/3 or have an E7. As we know, the choice was the EM1. Though the EM1 is a fine camera, a lot of 4/3 users left Olympus. In turn, m4/3 also gathered a lot of followers. As for the stats if it was better for Olympus, I wouldn't know. In my case, I cannot stay with a company that will just change lens mounts and keep me buying one body with different lens mounts saying this is what we offer you as an upgrade and which does not allow me to grow into the system. It makes my hobby expensive. That's why I'm here because Pentax like Nikon supported their lens mount. Plus, Pentax offers weather sealing in bodies and lenses and, like Olympus image stabilizers are in the camera and not on lenses. For me, this is a great deal.

Last edited by totsmuyco; 12-31-2014 at 08:22 AM.
12-31-2014, 08:27 AM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jyrkira Quote
DSLR sales are still a lot bigger than mirrorless sales and there are more brands making mirrorless than making DSLR today. Which one you think is more crowded ?

The main idea of mirrorless is shorter register distance which allows smaller bodies and wide angle lenses. If FF Pentax is mirrorless it should have no k-mount because there is no advantage in mirrorless with long register distance. The problem in this case is they must start from zero user base while user base for k-mount DSLR still exist.

EDIT: Also when we think whether a FF DSLR would make money or not we need to view profit as whole including all the indirect sales it generates. Camera, accessory and lens sales for those who did not left the brand because they finally got Pentax FF DSLR, first camera purchaces who dares to buy Pentax because there is update path to FF etc.

FF body may be unprofitable but at the same time it can make whole Pentax more profitable.
It could not make Pentax more profitable.

First, FF sensors and supporting circuitry push the prices above Pentax's comfort zone. Well above it when you look at the big zooms necessary to support FF.

Second, Pentax would have to start at least 2 more production lines just for optics to support FF.

This would need to happen with a K-mount DSLR or with a new mount MILC. New investment requires new customers. So either Pentax has to overcome the price issue and grow the market with those new to photography (saturated) or take from competitors (need lots of glass to do that).

One FF sensors normalize into the $1,000/body range then things look different as there can be a transition.

It's not really about legacy mount vs. new mount, mirrorless vs. DSLR. It's about the # o customers at a given price point, followed by the # of distinct lines of modes/mounts Pentax can support. They are at 3 now (K, Q, 645) and at one point had 4 if you count the Ricoh GXR.

Ricoh's GR/GXR investments are the gateway to mirrorless.

---------- Post added 12-31-14 at 11:31 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
Does the camera-maker's involvement end the moment you click the shutter? That's another widespread assumption. Thus the mainstream camera-makers offer the user no help when it comes to getting their shots into print, onto the web or into other media large and small. Most of them don't even show the user how to get the best from their camera and/or learn a bit about photography. Their websites are third-party boilerplate marketing stuff.

All just speculation, of course. But the result is that it really doesn't matter whether Pentax or anyone else makes an FF camera, and APS-C one or even a 1-incher. If the camera is based on assumptions which are a decade at least behind the times and still rooted in the analogue era, sales will continue to tank. So, imho, the best choice might be to become completely brand agnostic. Select what you need for a particular purpose, no more, and don't get sucked into any brand.
I have long stated that the optical camera makers' inability to adapt their products to mobile OS and wireless connectivity has been a major, if not decisive, factor in stalled sales. If they had roughly the same connectivity as a smartphone then their trump cards of larger sensors and vastly superior optics would be seen as a natural accompaniment. When you read the Pentax Ricoh interview they almost seem baffled by the consumer turn towards mobile OS and connectivity, and the tone makes it seem like they view it as separate from the mass market for photography. They need their images to go from sensor to mobile OS....fast!
12-31-2014, 08:31 AM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Ricoh's GR/GXR investments are the gateway to mirrorless.
THAT is the observation no one on this Forum ever recalls (and I'm in the group). Pentax is the brand for traditional cameras and lenses. Ricoh is the brand for new technology and Ricoh-legacy cameras.
QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
FF sensors and supporting circuitry push the prices above Pentax's comfort zone. Well above it when you look at the big zooms necessary to support FF
The FF question should be asked this way: "Would you pay $2,699 right now for a mini-645z in a K10D body?"
12-31-2014, 08:37 AM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
THAT is the observation no one on this Forum ever recalls (and I'm in the group). Pentax is the brand for traditional cameras and lenses. Ricoh is the brand for new technology and Ricoh-legacy cameras.
That only reflects the always problematic issue in Japanese companies of siloing their product development. The Ricoh GXR was a a failed concept but it WAS a MILC with EVF.

The moment Ricoh absorbed Pentax (and did away with the Pentax P&S line BTW, now re-branded Ricoh, which is as "traditional" as any camera) was the moment Pentax had a MILC sibling.

I think the problem for Pentax Ricoh has more to do with limited assembly facilities, so beginning a cannibaliizing MILC is problematic while still keeping their K/Q/645 facilities going. Hence the recent emphasis in marketing about the viability of the prism and good optics.

Pentax is now ONLY a DSLR brand. That is the stalled market making FF problematic.

---------- Post added 12-31-14 at 11:39 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The FF question should be asked this way: "Would you pay $2,699 right now for a mini-645z in a K10D body?"
The corporate boardroom would ask "How many consumers are there for a mini-645z in a K10D body at $2,699".

There is ALWAYS someone would wold pay...it's simply a question of how many find that much investment in photography worthwhile, particularly in a collapsed photojournalism and photo pro market.
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