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01-15-2015, 11:54 AM - 4 Likes   #646
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I think it's been stated several times in this thread that virtually no one is expecting a touchscreen interface to replace the physical interface. Why are objections being based on this doomsday fear?
True button pushers like pushing any buttons- camera buttons, shirt buttons, belly buttons, doomsday buttons, and especially the buttons of touchscreen advocates.

01-15-2015, 12:03 PM   #647
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QuoteOriginally posted by aleonx3 Quote
It is already happening as you can see in the new 'unnamed' model; but don't bank on it on high end models....
Oh cool, yea just saw the post... Hmm camera looks cheap-ish. lol Unfortunately as you said probably not gonna be available on higher-end models. Very unfortunate, in fact. Sadly the only thing that's keeping me from switching is my unwillingness to part with my primes (and the headache of building another system from scratch). I really hope that the next higher-end camera from Pentax would check more of these boxes that other manufacturers already have checked - whether any individual users need a specific feature is immaterial - at the k-3 price point and target users, in *2015*, such things as articulating back IMO should be standard feature...
01-15-2015, 12:13 PM - 1 Like   #648
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Chimping.
Swiping to go from photo to photo.
Un-Pinching to zoom and check focus
Pinching to view thumbnails
Swiping to rapidly scroll through thumbnails
Tapping to pick a single photo to review
Finding a well exposed photo in a set and tapping an on screen "Set Exposure" button to set the camera to that photo's Aperture, Shutter, ISO, etc...
Reviewing a photo with an 18% grey card in it and then tapping on the card to set the camera's white balance
Reviewing a photo that you want to lock and tapping an on screen Lock button.

If a good touchscreen interface can reduce my chimping time in half the gives me more time to take photos, ride my bike, and chat with people.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.

Last edited by johnmflores; 01-15-2015 at 12:25 PM.
01-15-2015, 12:23 PM - 1 Like   #649
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I think it's been stated several times in this thread that virtually no one is expecting a touchscreen interface to replace the physical interface. Why are objections being based on this doomsday fear?
Hold your K3 and try to touch the screen with your thumb while you are holding on to the grip. Unless we are all to become ambidextrous, the touch screen implementation would have a major effect on the position and number of buttons available to your right hand. Or you would need to let go. Or there would need to be two interfaces maintained.

Hit the replay button and scroll back to get a grid of photos. How big would they need to be to be selected reliably with your thumb? Ok, we need bigger, so a bigger screen. Where is the real estate coming from, except replacing buttons. Or show three per page as opposed to 12-32. Do everything with an $800 lens hanging off the front. Try it. It wouldn't be anywhere near usable with the current layout, so you throw away a very nicely working layout. For what again?

I'm certain that this comes up regularly in product design in all the manufacturers. A great idea until you pick up a camera and try it. Then the product managers ask why are we going to spend money on two interfaces, both with hardware expenses and especially expensive engineer design input.

There are very narrow use patterns where a touch screen would be an improvement. Maybe selecting focus points in live view on a tripod. The problem is that it necessarily becomes and either or proposition.

01-15-2015, 12:30 PM   #650
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Hold your K3 and try to touch the screen with your thumb while you are holding on to the grip. Unless we are all to become ambidextrous, the touch screen implementation would have a major effect on the position and number of buttons available to your right hand. Or you would need to let go. Or there would need to be two interfaces maintained.

Hit the replay button and scroll back to get a grid of photos. How big would they need to be to be selected reliably with your thumb? Ok, we need bigger, so a bigger screen. Where is the real estate coming from, except replacing buttons. Or show three per page as opposed to 12-32. Do everything with an $800 lens hanging off the front. Try it. It wouldn't be anywhere near usable with the current layout, so you throw away a very nicely working layout. For what again?

I'm certain that this comes up regularly in product design in all the manufacturers. A great idea until you pick up a camera and try it. Then the product managers ask why are we going to spend money on two interfaces, both with hardware expenses and especially expensive engineer design input.

There are very narrow use patterns where a touch screen would be an improvement. Maybe selecting focus points in live view on a tripod. The problem is that it necessarily becomes and either or proposition.
And for good measure, also try and do the above in winter, with gloves on your hands, while you are out photo-shooting a winter sports event... or even any kind of event.
01-15-2015, 12:40 PM - 1 Like   #651
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QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
You'd think Pentax had already released the crappiest touch screen known to man, judging by some of these comments...
Seriously. I keep tapping and touching and pressing on it and NOTHING HAPPENS.

Wait, what?
01-15-2015, 12:53 PM - 1 Like   #652
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Completely do not get where some of the comments are coming from in against having a touch screen display... Why do you have to "sacrifice" anything to have this added feature? I like the physical buttons on my k-5, in fact sometimes I wish there were MORE physical buttons, but it's pretty good as-is. I also wish it has a touch screen for easy navigation. Do people not review photos after they take them on a camera? Do you wish sifting through all the photos can be done quicker and more intuitively? I do, I find touch screen easy and convenient.

There are specific use cases where a combination of an articulating screen and a touch screen can make life much easier for the photographer, you may not care for it, but someone who's buying a modern $1200 camera expect to have this sort of functionality to be there when needed. Not to mention, videos - yes, not a primary usage in most dSLRs, but again, this is 2015, not 1995. You expect your "prosumer" camera to have these check boxes covered.

For me, the reason why I picked Pentax 5 years ago as my system is the compactness and the quality of lens. 5 years ago mirrorless cameras were immature at best. Now 5 years later, these 2 things Pentax has that was once unique, is no longer unique. In fact their dSLR bodys, from a feature list perspective, is not really competitive imo. And anyone looking for a compact system? Well, there's the Fuji system, there's the Sony system, and there's all kinds of nice m43 cameras now.

Pentax needs to be able to check off all these checkboxes that other guys already checked years ago in order to stay competitive. They are not gonna attract new customers this way and no amount of rationalization is gonna help.
01-15-2015, 12:56 PM   #653
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Hold your K3 and try to touch the screen with your thumb while you are holding on to the grip. Unless we are all to become ambidextrous, the touch screen implementation would have a major effect on the position and number of buttons available to your right hand. Or you would need to let go. Or there would need to be two interfaces maintained.
I usually hold the camera with left hand (or both), and operates the buttons with right hand (except for play and delete which are operated with left hand). I don't think I can reach the lower right side buttons used for review without letting go of the grip.

With a touch screen interface I would probably operate the screen with both thumbs for simple stuff, or vary between operating the screen using left or right hand for more complex stuff.


Last edited by Fogel70; 01-15-2015 at 01:10 PM.
01-15-2015, 01:02 PM   #654
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Chimping.
Swiping to go from photo to photo.
Un-Pinching to zoom and check focus
Pinching to view thumbnails
Swiping to rapidly scroll through thumbnails
Tapping to pick a single photo to review
Finding a well exposed photo in a set and tapping an on screen "Set Exposure" button to set the camera to that photo's Aperture, Shutter, ISO, etc...
Reviewing a photo with an 18% grey card in it and then tapping on the card to set the camera's white balance
Reviewing a photo that you want to lock and tapping an on screen Lock button.

If a good touchscreen interface can reduce my chimping time in half the gives me more time to take photos, ride my bike, and chat with people.

And that's just the tip of the iceberg.
I did that, with my K-5IIs; here are my conclusions:
I can barely access a quarter of the screen with my right thumb. For anything more than that, I would have to let go and dedicate either my left or right hand to touch gestures. This can work with a small lens like the Limiteds, or when you're not hand holding the camera. Of course, with the current interface you'd have to briefly change your grip to access the play button.

Swiping to go from photo to photo. - a vertical sweep gesture could be performed with the right thumb. Alternatively, you could change your grip and dedicate a hand to swipe gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is faster.

Un-Pinching to zoom and check focus - needs to dedicate a hand to touch gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is somewhat faster (and with instant preview you don't have to reach for the Play button).

Pinching to view thumbnails - needs to dedicate a hand to touch gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is somewhat faster.

Swiping to rapidly scroll through thumbnails - Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is much faster. Each click is equivalent to a full swipe.

Tapping to pick a single photo to review - Excluding the time to change your grip, touchscreen will be faster. The problem here is how to select the image which you want to review - other than that, it's just a wheel click.

Finding a well exposed photo in a set and tapping an on screen "Set Exposure" button to set the camera to that photo's Aperture, Shutter, ISO, etc...
Reviewing a photo with an 18% grey card in it and then tapping on the card to set the camera's white balance
Reviewing a photo that you want to lock and tapping an on screen Lock button.
- those are scenarios favouring a touch interface. We can imagine countless of somewhat useful functions which could easily be accessible from the Play interface, but careful not to clutter the screen.
01-15-2015, 01:35 PM - 2 Likes   #655
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
I did that, with my K-5IIs; here are my conclusions:
I can barely access a quarter of the screen with my right thumb. For anything more than that, I would have to let go and dedicate either my left or right hand to touch gestures. This can work with a small lens like the Limiteds, or when you're not hand holding the camera. Of course, with the current interface you'd have to briefly change your grip to access the play button.

I'm holding a K-5 with grip and the DA 55-300 HD WR and a flash trigger in my right hand and it's no problem, even without a strap. Tuck your elbow into your side or your wrist on you leg if you are sitting and it's no problem. I'm a lefty, so holding in the right and touching the screen with the left is natural for me.

Swiping to go from photo to photo. - a vertical sweep gesture could be performed with the right thumb. Alternatively, you could change your grip and dedicate a hand to swipe gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is faster.

Un-Pinching to zoom and check focus - needs to dedicate a hand to touch gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is somewhat faster (and with instant preview you don't have to reach for the Play button).

Pinching to view thumbnails - needs to dedicate a hand to touch gestures. Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is somewhat faster.

Swiping to rapidly scroll through thumbnails - Using the wheel which naturally sits under your thumb is much faster. Each click is equivalent to a full swipe.

Tapping to pick a single photo to review - Excluding the time to change your grip, touchscreen will be faster. The problem here is how to select the image which you want to review - other than that, it's just a wheel click.

Finding a well exposed photo in a set and tapping an on screen "Set Exposure" button to set the camera to that photo's Aperture, Shutter, ISO, etc...
Reviewing a photo with an 18% grey card in it and then tapping on the card to set the camera's white balance
Reviewing a photo that you want to lock and tapping an on screen Lock button.
- those are scenarios favouring a touch interface. We can imagine countless of somewhat useful functions which could easily be accessible from the Play interface, but careful not to clutter the screen.
The Pentax button interface is well thought out (one of the reasons why I like the brand), but I know several circumstance that I encounter regularly where I must perform plenty of wheel clicks and button taps to do something. Like checking critical focus (4x or greater) when the subject is off center, which they usually are for me. That's at least 8 clicks of the wheel then tapping the four-way buttons to find the subject.

Worse still is checking critical focus for a series of images, each one where the subject is off-center AND not in the same position. Now, I need to spin the wheel at least 8 clicks to get to 4x and then tap the four-way buttons to move the viewer. I can use the front wheel to get to the next image, but then I need to tap the four-way buttons repeatedly to locate the subject again. Repeat for the next shot. Then the next shot. And so on.

These actions alone take up a lot of my chimping time, and my experience with smartphones suggests that it will be much quicker to do this with a well-implemented touch screen.
01-15-2015, 01:40 PM   #656
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next: voice commands. Just tell your camera what to do.
01-15-2015, 02:14 PM - 1 Like   #657
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Swivel-Tilt screen and wi-fi were thought to be gimmicky and useless before the "unnamed" camera was shown at CES. Now they are useful additions.
Once Pentax puts a touchscreen on a camera, all these arguments against it will magically vanish.
01-15-2015, 02:28 PM   #658
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johnmflores: I'll add "image scrolling" on the touchscreen will be faster category.

QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Swivel-Tilt screen and wi-fi were thought to be gimmicky and useless before the "unnamed" camera was shown at CES. Now they are useful additions.
Strange; I remember people here complaining about (Pentax lacking) both for years
01-15-2015, 03:24 PM   #659
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Swivel-Tilt screen and wi-fi were thought to be gimmicky and useless before the "unnamed" camera was shown at CES. Now they are useful additions.
Once Pentax puts a touchscreen on a camera, all these arguments against it will magically vanish.
No they won't. I'll just be thankful that I bought my Pentax before any of this junk made it onto the cameras.
01-15-2015, 03:49 PM   #660
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I'm looking forward to an articulating screen again, the one on my old 60D was very useful.
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