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01-16-2015, 01:39 AM   #676
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QuoteOriginally posted by beachgardener Quote
Leica recently brought out a camera just like that if my memory serves me correctly
Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam.

01-16-2015, 02:17 AM   #677
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam.
It's a camera for artists. I understand it's appeal. It's the same appeal as I have towards film. Taking time with my subject and putting a lot of care into the picture I'm taking. Artists tend to be piss-poor though, so I don't really understand that part of Leica's logic.
01-16-2015, 02:25 AM - 1 Like   #678
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It can't be a camera for artists, precisely because it would be expensive. An artist can find tools which are more than adequate at much better prices (and simply ignore the features they don't need).
That is a camera for collectors and nostalgic people.
01-16-2015, 05:10 AM - 3 Likes   #679
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Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it.

Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-)

A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.

#stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr

01-16-2015, 05:17 AM - 1 Like   #680
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QuoteOriginally posted by mrNewt Quote
And for good measure, also try and do the above in winter, with gloves on your hands, while you are out photo-shooting a winter sports event... or even any kind of event.
Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control"

01-16-2015, 05:51 AM   #681
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.
That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.
01-16-2015, 06:00 AM   #682
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yassarian Quote
Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot.
Well at the end of the day I don't need a camera at all, if you want to be picky. And my mobile phone won't do "just fine", because try as I might, I can't find a lens on it. Or a shutter button, for that matter.

What I want is a camera that is easy to use, but which has excellent image quality. My new K-S1 is just the job, because it has the IQ and low weight that I want, and it doesn't have the extra gimmicks that I definitely don't want. I might have considered one of the Fuji offerings, but none was quite right (X20, f'rinstance, sensor much too small), and this way I can take occasional advantage of the other K lenses we have.
01-16-2015, 06:32 AM   #683
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control"
Thanks but no thanks .
Personally, for that price I'm better off buying real gloves (for much less) that actually keeps your hands warm in our Canadian winters and choose a camera without touch screen. Plus, gloves on tiny screens don't actually work that well... as in fast enough to actually be more efficient and save you some time.

01-16-2015, 08:08 AM   #684
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
I agree! I chose Pentax about 7 years ago. And for a while they were truly ahead. WR was unique, so was SR and small form factor and very good affordability. It seemed to me it was a company that put vastly more resource into R&D then in marketing. Letting good products sell themselves. Clearly, they concluded that strategy was not working and moved some things around there. But I think it was a very good strategy for a tiny camera brand to survive. Heck, back then, it was the only time I ever saw Pentax in the stores, right next to Canon, Nikon and Olympus.

But is checking off the boxes that the other manufacturers already have enough? It seems then they're bound to lagging behind. They can also skip some boxes if they can find something to be unique in again.
I think unfortunately, it wouldn't be enough. Right now there's not much difference in core competency of a higher end camera - sensors are by and large "good enough" regardless of maker/model, so you differentiate in other ways. Unfortunately, Ricoh/Pentax isn't a bleeding-edge tech company and doesn't have a lot of resources. Look at what Samsung has done with their latest mirrorless - crammed literally everything they can think of into it. I'm sure for most users 80% of that stuff is overkill and will never be missed, but that's how they choose to differentiate. The camera certainly is competent enough at taking photos, and the price point isn't bad, so you get all that other "stuff" as value-add. Whether you use them or not is entirely up to you. (side note, geo-tagging is great! )

I "graduated" from a kx, to a k-7, to a k-5 in fairly rapid succession, and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch. I find the sensor capable enough for my needs, I am comfortable with the controls, this is what would compel me to upgrade:

My Pentax checklist:
1) Improve AF. It's downright pathetic compared to other systems of similar price range. I used the k-3 and it was obviously better than my k-5, but compared to my friend's Nikon and Canon it's embarrassing.
2) Keep the overall compactness. *THIS* more than anything is what makes it stands out. You lose that and you lose your brand identity
3) Add articulated touch screen to the flagship models. You don't have to use it, but a lot of people find it very useful

...
...
...

10) FULL FRAME?!! - TBH this isn't that big of a deal to me. If they skim over 1), 2), and 3) and just made the sensor bigger, then all you have is another non-competitive big-sensor camera that nobody would pick over the much more refined models from... every other company. FF isn't Pentax's core competency, it's certainly a nice to have and it checks a rather BIG box, but if they don't take care of 1) 2) 3), having a half-assed 10) does nothing but hurt them.

... That being said, I have $2000 burning a hole in my pocket for the moment that Pentax full frame gets released... We certainly aren't a rational bunch, no? lol

Last edited by Yassarian; 01-16-2015 at 08:19 AM.
01-16-2015, 08:41 AM   #685
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.
Fascinating, indeed. And true.
Let's ignore Leica; let's use a mainstream brand: Nikon. Df vs. D610. The Df is almost as expensive as the D810, actually...
01-16-2015, 08:46 AM   #686
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QuoteOriginally posted by richandfleur Quote
Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it.

Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-)

A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.

#stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr
Why the heck would you care if some are willing to pay for that. It's not as if pentax was asked to drop one of their usual camera segment for that.
01-16-2015, 09:07 AM   #687
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I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera.
01-16-2015, 09:45 AM   #688
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.
That is because most of the features on a camera is already embedded on a chip,,,,
01-16-2015, 10:27 AM   #689
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QuoteOriginally posted by Yassarian Quote
Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot. Why do ppl buy Mercedes and Bimmers when a Civic is a perfectly logical car for their need?

Anyway I like a nicely made camera so I picked the k-5, plus, for the price it's quite good.

P.S. - there are plenty of pros who specializes in weddings and family/baby photos, who use "high-end pro models", so I don't really understand the confusion - kids move fast and erratically, in-door natural lights sometimes aren't great, it does demand a bit more on your gear. Believe it or not...
No, I don't want to get into argument about what Pentax should do or not do because I don't know. But your assumption that Pentax should make articulating screen for high end FF/APS-C models just because 1) other brands have, 2) easier for you (as enthusiasts) want convenience, sounds very like much like personal preference which is perfectly fine. Most professionals, and event photographers don't use Liveview as much and therefore don't care too much nor want to pay for articulating screen. Again, I am not against entry-level models having that feature which is aimed at people like yourself (sorry, I can only based on what you used it for).
01-16-2015, 10:29 AM   #690
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QuoteOriginally posted by VoiceOfReason Quote
I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera.
I wouldn't want it either but that is of concern if and only if current factories are at full capacity already. Otherwise it may be even be a good way to fill capacity: make more money.
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