News at CES 2015?

thibs · 01-16-2015, 01:39 AM

Originally posted by beachgardener

Leica recently brought out a camera just like that if my memory serves me correctly

Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam.

Clavius · 01-16-2015, 02:17 AM

Originally posted by thibs

Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam.

It's a camera for artists. I understand it's appeal. It's the same appeal as I have towards film. Taking time with my subject and putting a lot of care into the picture I'm taking. Artists tend to be piss-poor though, so I don't really understand that part of Leica's logic.

Kunzite · 01-16-2015, 02:25 AM - **1 Like**

It can't be a camera for artists, precisely because it would be expensive. An artist can find tools which are more than adequate at much better prices (and simply ignore the features they don't need).
That is a camera for collectors and nostalgic people.

richandfleur · 01-16-2015, 05:10 AM - **3 Likes**

Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it.

Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-)

A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.

#stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr

Mistral75 · 01-16-2015, 05:17 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by mrNewt

And for good measure, also try and do the above in winter, with gloves on your hands, while you are out photo-shooting a winter sports event... or even any kind of event.

Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control"

Clavius · 01-16-2015, 05:51 AM

Originally posted by richandfleur

A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.

That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.

Clothears · 01-16-2015, 06:00 AM

Originally posted by Yassarian

Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot.

Well at the end of the day I don't need a camera at all, if you want to be picky. And my mobile phone won't do "just fine", because try as I might, I can't find a lens on it. Or a shutter button, for that matter.

What I want is a camera that is easy to use, but which has excellent image quality. My new K-S1 is just the job, because it has the IQ and low weight that I want, and it doesn't have the extra gimmicks that I definitely don't want. I might have considered one of the Fuji offerings, but none was quite right (X20, f'rinstance, sensor much too small), and this way I can take occasional advantage of the other K lenses we have.

mrNewt · 01-16-2015, 06:32 AM

Originally posted by Mistral75

Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control"

Thanks but no thanks

.
Personally, for that price I'm better off buying real gloves (for much less) that actually keeps your hands warm in our Canadian winters and choose a camera without touch screen. Plus, gloves on tiny screens don't actually work that well... as in fast enough to actually be more efficient and save you some time.

Yassarian · 01-16-2015, 08:08 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

I agree! I chose Pentax about 7 years ago. And for a while they were truly ahead. WR was unique, so was SR and small form factor and very good affordability. It seemed to me it was a company that put vastly more resource into R&D then in marketing. Letting good products sell themselves. Clearly, they concluded that strategy was not working and moved some things around there. But I think it was a very good strategy for a tiny camera brand to survive. Heck, back then, it was the only time I ever saw Pentax in the stores, right next to Canon, Nikon and Olympus.

But is checking off the boxes that the other manufacturers already have enough? It seems then they're bound to lagging behind. They can also skip some boxes if they can find something to be unique in again.

I think unfortunately, it wouldn't be enough. Right now there's not much difference in core competency of a higher end camera - sensors are by and large "good enough" regardless of maker/model, so you differentiate in other ways. Unfortunately, Ricoh/Pentax isn't a bleeding-edge tech company and doesn't have a lot of resources. Look at what Samsung has done with their latest mirrorless - crammed literally everything they can think of into it. I'm sure for most users 80% of that stuff is overkill and will never be missed, but that's how they choose to differentiate. The camera certainly is competent enough at taking photos, and the price point isn't bad, so you get all that other "stuff" as value-add. Whether you use them or not is entirely up to you. (side note, geo-tagging is great!

)

I "graduated" from a kx, to a k-7, to a k-5 in fairly rapid succession, and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch. I find the sensor capable enough for my needs, I am comfortable with the controls, this is what would compel me to upgrade:

My Pentax checklist:
1) Improve AF. It's downright pathetic compared to other systems of similar price range. I used the k-3 and it was obviously better than my k-5, but compared to my friend's Nikon and Canon it's embarrassing.
2) Keep the overall compactness. *THIS* more than anything is what makes it stands out. You lose that and you lose your brand identity
3) Add articulated touch screen to the flagship models. You don't have to use it, but a lot of people find it very useful

...
...
...

10) FULL FRAME?!!

- TBH this isn't that big of a deal to me. If they skim over 1), 2), and 3) and just made the sensor bigger, then all you have is another non-competitive big-sensor camera that nobody would pick over the much more refined models from... every other company. FF isn't Pentax's core competency, it's certainly a nice to have and it checks a rather BIG box, but if they don't take care of 1) 2) 3), having a half-assed 10) does nothing but hurt them.

... That being said, I have $2000 burning a hole in my pocket for the moment that Pentax full frame gets released... We certainly aren't a rational bunch, no? lol

Kunzite · 01-16-2015, 08:41 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.

Fascinating, indeed. And true.
Let's ignore Leica; let's use a mainstream brand: Nikon. Df vs. D610. The Df is almost as expensive as the D810, actually...

thibs · 01-16-2015, 08:46 AM

Originally posted by richandfleur

Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it.

Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-)

A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos.

#stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr

Why the heck would you care if some are willing to pay for that. It's not as if pentax was asked to drop one of their usual camera segment for that.

**VoiceOfReason** · 01-16-2015, 09:07 AM

I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera.

**Pål Jensen** · 01-16-2015, 09:45 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.

That is because most of the features on a camera is already embedded on a chip,,,,

aleonx3 · 01-16-2015, 10:27 AM

Originally posted by Yassarian

Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot.

Why do ppl buy Mercedes and Bimmers when a Civic is a perfectly logical car for their need?

Anyway I like a nicely made camera so I picked the k-5, plus, for the price it's quite good.

P.S. - there are plenty of pros who specializes in weddings and family/baby photos, who use "high-end pro models", so I don't really understand the confusion - kids move fast and erratically, in-door natural lights sometimes aren't great, it does demand a bit more on your gear. Believe it or not...

No, I don't want to get into argument about what Pentax should do or not do because I don't know. But your assumption that Pentax should make articulating screen for high end FF/APS-C models just because 1) other brands have, 2) easier for you (as enthusiasts) want convenience, sounds very like much like personal preference which is perfectly fine. Most professionals, and event photographers don't use Liveview as much and therefore don't care too much nor want to pay for articulating screen. Again, I am not against entry-level models having that feature which is aimed at people like yourself (sorry, I can only based on what you used it for).

thibs · 01-16-2015, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by VoiceOfReason

I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera.

I wouldn't want it either but that is of concern if and only if current factories are at full capacity already. Otherwise it may be even be a good way to fill capacity: make more money.

01-16-2015, 08:08 AM	#684
Yassarian Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Ohio Posts: 72	Originally posted by Clavius I agree! I chose Pentax about 7 years ago. And for a while they were truly ahead. WR was unique, so was SR and small form factor and very good affordability. It seemed to me it was a company that put vastly more resource into R&D then in marketing. Letting good products sell themselves. Clearly, they concluded that strategy was not working and moved some things around there. But I think it was a very good strategy for a tiny camera brand to survive. Heck, back then, it was the only time I ever saw Pentax in the stores, right next to Canon, Nikon and Olympus. But is checking off the boxes that the other manufacturers already have enough? It seems then they're bound to lagging behind. They can also skip some boxes if they can find something to be unique in again. I think unfortunately, it wouldn't be enough. Right now there's not much difference in core competency of a higher end camera - sensors are by and large "good enough" regardless of maker/model, so you differentiate in other ways. Unfortunately, Ricoh/Pentax isn't a bleeding-edge tech company and doesn't have a lot of resources. Look at what Samsung has done with their latest mirrorless - crammed literally everything they can think of into it. I'm sure for most users 80% of that stuff is overkill and will never be missed, but that's how they choose to differentiate. The camera certainly is competent enough at taking photos, and the price point isn't bad, so you get all that other "stuff" as value-add. Whether you use them or not is entirely up to you. (side note, geo-tagging is great! ) I "graduated" from a kx, to a k-7, to a k-5 in fairly rapid succession, and I haven't found any compelling reason to switch. I find the sensor capable enough for my needs, I am comfortable with the controls, this is what would compel me to upgrade: My Pentax checklist: 1) Improve AF. It's downright pathetic compared to other systems of similar price range. I used the k-3 and it was obviously better than my k-5, but compared to my friend's Nikon and Canon it's embarrassing. 2) Keep the overall compactness. THIS more than anything is what makes it stands out. You lose that and you lose your brand identity 3) Add articulated touch screen to the flagship models. You don't have to use it, but a lot of people find it very useful ... ... ... 10) FULL FRAME?!! - TBH this isn't that big of a deal to me. If they skim over 1), 2), and 3) and just made the sensor bigger, then all you have is another non-competitive big-sensor camera that nobody would pick over the much more refined models from... every other company. FF isn't Pentax's core competency, it's certainly a nice to have and it checks a rather BIG box, but if they don't take care of 1) 2) 3), having a half-assed 10) does nothing but hurt them. ... That being said, I have $2000 burning a hole in my pocket for the moment that Pentax full frame gets released... We certainly aren't a rational bunch, no? lol Last edited by Yassarian; 01-16-2015 at 08:19 AM.

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01-16-2015, 01:39 AM	#676
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 6,947	Originally posted by beachgardener Leica recently brought out a camera just like that if my memory serves me correctly Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam.

01-16-2015, 02:17 AM	#677
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,133	Originally posted by thibs Yep, when I said it wasn't that stupid, I almost got insulted because I just should use a film cam. It's a camera for artists. I understand it's appeal. It's the same appeal as I have towards film. Taking time with my subject and putting a lot of care into the picture I'm taking. Artists tend to be piss-poor though, so I don't really understand that part of Leica's logic.

01-16-2015, 02:25 AM - 1 Like	#678
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,100	It can't be a camera for artists, precisely because it would be expensive. An artist can find tools which are more than adequate at much better prices (and simply ignore the features they don't need). That is a camera for collectors and nostalgic people.

01-16-2015, 05:10 AM - 3 Likes	#679
richandfleur Pentaxian Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Palmerston North, New Zealand Photos: Albums Posts: 1,786	Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it. Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-) A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos. #stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr

01-16-2015, 05:17 AM - 1 Like	#680
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 6,962	Originally posted by mrNewt And for good measure, also try and do the above in winter, with gloves on your hands, while you are out photo-shooting a winter sports event... or even any kind of event. Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control"

01-16-2015, 05:51 AM	#681
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,133	Originally posted by richandfleur A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos. That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that.

01-16-2015, 06:00 AM	#682
Clothears Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Canterbury Posts: 170	Originally posted by Yassarian Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot. Well at the end of the day I don't need a camera at all, if you want to be picky. And my mobile phone won't do "just fine", because try as I might, I can't find a lens on it. Or a shutter button, for that matter. What I want is a camera that is easy to use, but which has excellent image quality. My new K-S1 is just the job, because it has the IQ and low weight that I want, and it doesn't have the extra gimmicks that I definitely don't want. I might have considered one of the Fuji offerings, but none was quite right (X20, f'rinstance, sensor much too small), and this way I can take occasional advantage of the other K lenses we have.

01-16-2015, 06:32 AM	#683
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,179	Originally posted by Mistral75 Just use gloves like these with their "super-soft goat leather" and "unique cut for full touch sensation for thumb and forefinger" allowing "full touch screen control" Thanks but no thanks . Personally, for that price I'm better off buying real gloves (for much less) that actually keeps your hands warm in our Canadian winters and choose a camera without touch screen. Plus, gloves on tiny screens don't actually work that well... as in fast enough to actually be more efficient and save you some time.

01-16-2015, 08:41 AM	#685
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,100	Originally posted by Clavius That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that. Fascinating, indeed. And true. Let's ignore Leica; let's use a mainstream brand: Nikon. Df vs. D610. The Df is almost as expensive as the D810, actually...

01-16-2015, 08:46 AM	#686
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 6,947	Originally posted by richandfleur Nikon DF is similar. I suspect it still contains the video code in the software, just without a switch to engage it. Don't like the rear screen? Don't use it. Don't like the intervalometer? Don't use it. Don't like the inbuilt HDR modes? Don't use them. Don't like a touchscreen? Don't use it. Don't like a flippy screen? Don't fold it out? Don't like a camera that meters itself? Use manual mode (with a fixed ISO value) Don't like wifi? Don't engage it. Don't like SR? Turn it off etc etc Don't like good autofocus? Use a pentax ;-) A camera with no additional features may well sell, but it will certainly cost more, and be no better IQ wise than what we have now. Time to put on our big kid undies and use the tool to take photos. #stilllookingforwardtothisnewpentaxdslr Why the heck would you care if some are willing to pay for that. It's not as if pentax was asked to drop one of their usual camera segment for that.

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01-16-2015, 09:07 AM	#687
VoiceOfReason Emperor and Senpai Join Date: Jun 2010 Location: Mishawaka IN area Photos: Albums Posts: 6,122	I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera.

01-16-2015, 09:45 AM	#688
Pål Jensen Site Supporter Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Norway Photos: Albums Posts: 4,351	Originally posted by Clavius That's what I find so fascinating. Compare it to cars: Airco? You pay extra. Electric windows? Extra! Built in navigation, heated seats, leather interior, central locking, windshield heating: all extras that add to the price. Or lets compare it to phones: The more basic a phone is, the cheaper it gets. The latest greatest smartphones are the most expensive. But then suddenly with cameras, supposedly, less means higher price?!? I cannot believe that. That is because most of the features on a camera is already embedded on a chip,,,,

01-16-2015, 10:27 AM	#689
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by Yassarian Well, to be fair, unless you are getting paid to do this stuff, you don't "need" a high-end anything. A cell phone will do just fine. But I'm assuming we are here discussing about cameras, because we are enthusiasts and enjoy photography, so no, I don't need it, and probably most of the ppl here in this forum doesn't need anything more than a pns. The whole discussion is moot. Why do ppl buy Mercedes and Bimmers when a Civic is a perfectly logical car for their need? Anyway I like a nicely made camera so I picked the k-5, plus, for the price it's quite good. P.S. - there are plenty of pros who specializes in weddings and family/baby photos, who use "high-end pro models", so I don't really understand the confusion - kids move fast and erratically, in-door natural lights sometimes aren't great, it does demand a bit more on your gear. Believe it or not... No, I don't want to get into argument about what Pentax should do or not do because I don't know. But your assumption that Pentax should make articulating screen for high end FF/APS-C models just because 1) other brands have, 2) easier for you (as enthusiasts) want convenience, sounds very like much like personal preference which is perfectly fine. Most professionals, and event photographers don't use Liveview as much and therefore don't care too much nor want to pay for articulating screen. Again, I am not against entry-level models having that feature which is aimed at people like yourself (sorry, I can only based on what you used it for).

01-16-2015, 10:29 AM	#690
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 6,947	Originally posted by VoiceOfReason I think it all comes down to production capacity. People wouldn't want to see them take down production capacity on a more full featured camera if it is selling well to do what would essentially be a bespoke camera. I wouldn't want it either but that is of concern if and only if current factories are at full capacity already. Otherwise it may be even be a good way to fill capacity: make more money.