News at CES 2015?

Kunzite · 01-15-2015, 06:50 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JinDesu

I think he was joking.

He was trying to make people who won't readily accept inadequate interfaces appears as "Luddites" who would refuse any technology.
I said, trying.

---------- Post added 15-01-15 at 03:56 PM ----------

Originally posted by derekkite

If you have any substantial lens, you need to hold the body firmly. A touch screen requires you to let go. I can take a shot, with my left thumb turn on the viewer, scroll and magnify with my index finger or thumb of my right hand without releasing a solid grip on the body.

It's obvious once you think about it a little; just copying a typical smartphone interface on a DSLR won't work. Pentax should not do a "Windows 8", but keep their excellent interface.
It is possible to design a touch-assisted interface which won't interfere with your grip, but with limited usefulness.

derekkite · 01-15-2015, 07:17 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

It is possible to design a touch-assisted interface which won't interfere with your grip, but with limited usefulness.

Sure.

I don't mind video capabilities on my DSLR because I can turn it off if I don't want it. Same with HDR, or the jpeg engine. Wi-Fi as well. I very much doubt that a touchscreen interface would be optional. Nor that it would be well designed. The impetus behind it is to attract phone users. I already have one of those, and I have a dslr so as not to suffer it's inadequacies.

**monochrome** · 01-15-2015, 07:18 AM

Originally posted by richandfleur

The new GoPro Hero4 Silver has a built in touch screen. It's tiny, like postage stamp size and it works really well. For interests sake only...

I don't want a GoPro. I don't wnat to touch the LCD for anything. Nothing you say can change my mind. The form of a dSLR is not suited to interacting with the LCD. MILC's n their current form, maybe.

As long as default state is 'OFF' I don't care if it is there, but . . . . .

mrNewt · 01-15-2015, 07:29 AM

If you can do it... doesn't mean you should...

A touch screen menu on a 3" screen is a bad idea. The Pentax menu is quite hefty... in order to allow for touch screen you needs to have a larger design to account for the bigger hands out there. And so, the design of the menus will have to change and your steps will most probably multiply... since you won't be able to fit as much on the screen.
Unless the whole back is a touch screen, like a phone, this is pointless on a DSLR, especially on the so called "pro level". And once the whole back of the camera becomes a touch screen... you lose your buttons and then you end up with another monstrosity that looks like that camera that was posted earlier.

Keep your touch screen on your cellphones and (arguably) your point and shoot cameras or dslr like cameras.

Last edited by mrNewt; 01-15-2015 at 07:39 AM.

BrianR · 01-15-2015, 07:45 AM

Originally posted by Quicksand

My crazy touchscreen idea?

Well, for a loooong time I have wished for a straightforward way to annotate a shoot.

An aside to the touchscreen discussion, but why don't we have a voice annotation option yet? We now have built-in microphones so the hardware's there. My ~11 year old compact camera had it, but it hasn't made it as a mainstream dslr feature (only select 'high end' bodies have it afaik).

Clavius · 01-15-2015, 07:48 AM

Originally posted by derekkite

Sure.

I don't mind video capabilities on my DSLR because I can turn it off if I don't want it. Same with HDR, or the jpeg engine. Wi-Fi as well. I very much doubt that a touchscreen interface would be optional. Nor that it would be well designed. The impetus behind it is to attract phone users. I already have one of those, and I have a dslr so as not to suffer it's inadequacies.

What's worst about introducing touch screen to Pentax is that it would nerf the one and only remaining thing that Pentax currently has going for it: the Excellent ergonomics and excellent user interface. When I make a picture with my smartphone, I have to balance it between my thumbs and middle fingers. Leaving my index fingers to make an impossible bend to control the virtual buttons on the screen. I can't imagine any photographer wanting to go anywhere near that procedure with their camera.

JPT · 01-15-2015, 07:57 AM

It strikes me that a touch screen and tilt screen would be useful if the camera is on a tripod, especially at a low elevation. Also there are certain settings and functions that are just torture with the D-pad. Entering a wi-fi password would be one, but many of the deeper settings in the menus of DSLRs would be a lot quicker to change with a touch screen. Think about setting a customer colour profile or defining noise reduction levels. The DSLRs with a touch screen that I am aware of didn't lose any traditional controls from their predecessors, so it doesn't have to interfere with normal operation. The problem I see for a Pentax camera is that they are advertised as weather resistant, but touch screens don't work well when wet. If you got used to the touch screen, it would be frustrating to have to change the way you operate the camera in the wet.

gazonk · 01-15-2015, 08:05 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JinDesu

I think he was joking.

Yes, obviously. Stupid me.

But my irony detector is on repair, and it's made by Pentax so I don't know when it will be returned from Japan

mrNewt · 01-15-2015, 08:10 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by JPT

touch screens don't work well when wet

... or when is too cold... or when you have thick gloves... or when you do action photography and you need to have your eyes constantly in the viewfinder... or wedding photography... or macro photography, unless you are indoors on a tripod... not to mention the fact that in order to use the screen you always need to shoot trough the LV with the mirror up, which in that case you might as well use a mirrorless rather than a DSLR...

**monochrome** · 01-15-2015, 08:22 AM

Originally posted by mrNewt

which in that case you might as well use a mirrorless rather than a DSLR...

Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR.

mrNewt · 01-15-2015, 08:24 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR.

Yep, that was the point I was trying to make.

Kunzite · 01-15-2015, 08:27 AM

Originally posted by monochrome

Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR.

For a viewfinderless MILC, I'd say.

Kharan · 01-15-2015, 08:41 AM - **1 Like**

You people can't be serious, now are you? Have you ever experienced a good touchscreen implementation, like those on Canon or Panasonic cameras? Of course you haven't, which disqualifies all of your useless "reasoning" since you have no experience with those at all. If there's one thing that Pentax is sorely lacking, that is a well made touchscreen interface, which would complete the available set of controls to an extent no other camera out there has. Since Pentax DSLRs tend to have some of the smallest form factors of all, they just don't have as much room for additional buttons, which would be much ameliorated by a touchscreen.

I press the Q button on my SL1, and it suddenly has three times as many control points. Press it again and - WOW, I can rub my nose all over the screen and nothing happens! It's like magic, seriously! I do have to say that my K-30's twin dials are much better for image review, but when I need to delete batches of images, the touchscreen is again far better for it, not to mention to input copyright information or to work in live view. Why can't I have both things, the dials and buttons PLUS the touchscreen? Thankfully it isn't you Luddites in charge of product development at Ricoh, who seem to be learning their lessons and are now including the features that the K-S1 needed to have, but unexplainably didn't. Maybe this upcoming model won't have one (it's revolutionary enough as it is, for Pentax standards), but I'd be willing to bet good money the K-3 II will have it, along with a tilty screen. It just can't compete with the amount of buttons on a 7DII, simply because of its much smaller size, but a touchscreen could change all that.

**monochrome** · 01-15-2015, 08:43 AM

Originally posted by Kharan

they just don't have as much room for additional buttons, which would be much ameliorated by a touchscreen.

On the contrary, it is the touchscreen advocates who are making up utility that isn't real.

Which useful external controls does the K-3 actually lack compared to the (40% higher List Price) 7D Mk II?

Or would you add touch technology to the mid-range camera such as your K-30 and leave the flagship alone, as I have suggested?

As I have written, on a tripod, shooting in LiveView, touch focus and other LCD controls are useful. On a MILC (perpertual LiveView camera, if you will), touch controls are useful.

Of course, tethering a dSLR without touchscreen to a tablet is even MORE useful since you actually have some screen real estate to work with when it is actually useful to have it. You want touch tech? How about that?

While holding a camera up to my eye, such as when actually looking through a viewfinder (OVF or EVF) a touch control LCD has NO VALUE WHATSOEVER.

So for a traditional OVF / Mirror dSLR, what possible productive benefit can be reailzed from touch LCD technology? Actually, nothing that can't be done just as well with the 4-Way. OK, maybe the ONE TIME I enter personalization such as copyright information - oh, wait - I could do that on a tablet while it is tethered.

Well then . . . . .

mrNewt · 01-15-2015, 08:44 AM

Originally posted by Kharan

You people can't be serious, now are you? Have you ever experienced a good touchscreen implementation, like those on Canon or Panasonic cameras? Of course you haven't, which disqualifies all of your useless "reasoning" since you have no experience with those at all.

And your snotty comment is out of place... how can you know what experiences we have?
Don't draw conclusions like that... if it works for you and you like it doesn't mean the whole world has to like it. Deal with it.

01-15-2015, 08:43 AM	#629
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by Kharan they just don't have as much room for additional buttons, which would be much ameliorated by a touchscreen. On the contrary, it is the touchscreen advocates who are making up utility that isn't real. Which useful external controls does the K-3 actually lack compared to the (40% higher List Price) 7D Mk II? Or would you add touch technology to the mid-range camera such as your K-30 and leave the flagship alone, as I have suggested? As I have written, on a tripod, shooting in LiveView, touch focus and other LCD controls are useful. On a MILC (perpertual LiveView camera, if you will), touch controls are useful. Of course, tethering a dSLR without touchscreen to a tablet is even MORE useful since you actually have some screen real estate to work with when it is actually useful to have it. You want touch tech? How about that? While holding a camera up to my eye, such as when actually looking through a viewfinder (OVF or EVF) a touch control LCD has NO VALUE WHATSOEVER. So for a traditional OVF / Mirror dSLR, what possible productive benefit can be reailzed from touch LCD technology? Actually, nothing that can't be done just as well with the 4-Way. OK, maybe the ONE TIME I enter personalization such as copyright information - oh, wait - I could do that on a tablet while it is tethered. Well then . . . . . Last edited by monochrome; 01-15-2015 at 08:55 AM.

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01-15-2015, 06:50 AM - 1 Like	#616
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by JinDesu I think he was joking. He was trying to make people who won't readily accept inadequate interfaces appears as "Luddites" who would refuse any technology. I said, trying. ---------- Post added 15-01-15 at 03:56 PM ---------- Originally posted by derekkite If you have any substantial lens, you need to hold the body firmly. A touch screen requires you to let go. I can take a shot, with my left thumb turn on the viewer, scroll and magnify with my index finger or thumb of my right hand without releasing a solid grip on the body. It's obvious once you think about it a little; just copying a typical smartphone interface on a DSLR won't work. Pentax should not do a "Windows 8", but keep their excellent interface. It is possible to design a touch-assisted interface which won't interfere with your grip, but with limited usefulness.

01-15-2015, 07:17 AM	#617
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Originally posted by Kunzite It is possible to design a touch-assisted interface which won't interfere with your grip, but with limited usefulness. Sure. I don't mind video capabilities on my DSLR because I can turn it off if I don't want it. Same with HDR, or the jpeg engine. Wi-Fi as well. I very much doubt that a touchscreen interface would be optional. Nor that it would be well designed. The impetus behind it is to attract phone users. I already have one of those, and I have a dslr so as not to suffer it's inadequacies.

01-15-2015, 07:18 AM	#618
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by richandfleur The new GoPro Hero4 Silver has a built in touch screen. It's tiny, like postage stamp size and it works really well. For interests sake only... I don't want a GoPro. I don't wnat to touch the LCD for anything. Nothing you say can change my mind. The form of a dSLR is not suited to interacting with the LCD. MILC's n their current form, maybe. As long as default state is 'OFF' I don't care if it is there, but . . . . .

01-15-2015, 07:29 AM	#619
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,181	If you can do it... doesn't mean you should... A touch screen menu on a 3" screen is a bad idea. The Pentax menu is quite hefty... in order to allow for touch screen you needs to have a larger design to account for the bigger hands out there. And so, the design of the menus will have to change and your steps will most probably multiply... since you won't be able to fit as much on the screen. Unless the whole back is a touch screen, like a phone, this is pointless on a DSLR, especially on the so called "pro level". And once the whole back of the camera becomes a touch screen... you lose your buttons and then you end up with another monstrosity that looks like that camera that was posted earlier. Keep your touch screen on your cellphones and (arguably) your point and shoot cameras or dslr like cameras. Last edited by mrNewt; 01-15-2015 at 07:39 AM.

01-15-2015, 07:45 AM	#620
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by Quicksand My crazy touchscreen idea? Well, for a loooong time I have wished for a straightforward way to annotate a shoot. An aside to the touchscreen discussion, but why don't we have a voice annotation option yet? We now have built-in microphones so the hardware's there. My ~11 year old compact camera had it, but it hasn't made it as a mainstream dslr feature (only select 'high end' bodies have it afaik).

01-15-2015, 07:48 AM	#621
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by derekkite Sure. I don't mind video capabilities on my DSLR because I can turn it off if I don't want it. Same with HDR, or the jpeg engine. Wi-Fi as well. I very much doubt that a touchscreen interface would be optional. Nor that it would be well designed. The impetus behind it is to attract phone users. I already have one of those, and I have a dslr so as not to suffer it's inadequacies. What's worst about introducing touch screen to Pentax is that it would nerf the one and only remaining thing that Pentax currently has going for it: the Excellent ergonomics and excellent user interface. When I make a picture with my smartphone, I have to balance it between my thumbs and middle fingers. Leaving my index fingers to make an impossible bend to control the virtual buttons on the screen. I can't imagine any photographer wanting to go anywhere near that procedure with their camera.

01-15-2015, 07:57 AM	#622
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	It strikes me that a touch screen and tilt screen would be useful if the camera is on a tripod, especially at a low elevation. Also there are certain settings and functions that are just torture with the D-pad. Entering a wi-fi password would be one, but many of the deeper settings in the menus of DSLRs would be a lot quicker to change with a touch screen. Think about setting a customer colour profile or defining noise reduction levels. The DSLRs with a touch screen that I am aware of didn't lose any traditional controls from their predecessors, so it doesn't have to interfere with normal operation. The problem I see for a Pentax camera is that they are advertised as weather resistant, but touch screens don't work well when wet. If you got used to the touch screen, it would be frustrating to have to change the way you operate the camera in the wet.

01-15-2015, 08:05 AM - 1 Like	#623
gazonk Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Oslo area, Norway Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,746	Originally posted by JinDesu I think he was joking. Yes, obviously. Stupid me. But my irony detector is on repair, and it's made by Pentax so I don't know when it will be returned from Japan

01-15-2015, 08:10 AM - 1 Like	#624
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,181	Originally posted by JPT touch screens don't work well when wet ... or when is too cold... or when you have thick gloves... or when you do action photography and you need to have your eyes constantly in the viewfinder... or wedding photography... or macro photography, unless you are indoors on a tripod... not to mention the fact that in order to use the screen you always need to shoot trough the LV with the mirror up, which in that case you might as well use a mirrorless rather than a DSLR...

01-15-2015, 08:22 AM	#625
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by mrNewt which in that case you might as well use a mirrorless rather than a DSLR... Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR.

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01-15-2015, 08:24 AM	#626
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,181	Originally posted by monochrome Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR. Yep, that was the point I was trying to make.

01-15-2015, 08:27 AM	#627
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Originally posted by monochrome Tocuh LCD's are a nice feature for an MILC. Not so much for a dSLR. For a viewfinderless MILC, I'd say.

01-15-2015, 08:41 AM - 1 Like	#628
Kharan Forum Member Join Date: Nov 2013 Posts: 74	You people can't be serious, now are you? Have you ever experienced a good touchscreen implementation, like those on Canon or Panasonic cameras? Of course you haven't, which disqualifies all of your useless "reasoning" since you have no experience with those at all. If there's one thing that Pentax is sorely lacking, that is a well made touchscreen interface, which would complete the available set of controls to an extent no other camera out there has. Since Pentax DSLRs tend to have some of the smallest form factors of all, they just don't have as much room for additional buttons, which would be much ameliorated by a touchscreen. I press the Q button on my SL1, and it suddenly has three times as many control points. Press it again and - WOW, I can rub my nose all over the screen and nothing happens! It's like magic, seriously! I do have to say that my K-30's twin dials are much better for image review, but when I need to delete batches of images, the touchscreen is again far better for it, not to mention to input copyright information or to work in live view. Why can't I have both things, the dials and buttons PLUS the touchscreen? Thankfully it isn't you Luddites in charge of product development at Ricoh, who seem to be learning their lessons and are now including the features that the K-S1 needed to have, but unexplainably didn't. Maybe this upcoming model won't have one (it's revolutionary enough as it is, for Pentax standards), but I'd be willing to bet good money the K-3 II will have it, along with a tilty screen. It just can't compete with the amount of buttons on a 7DII, simply because of its much smaller size, but a touchscreen could change all that.

01-15-2015, 08:44 AM	#630
mrNewt Veteran Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: ON, RH Posts: 2,181	Originally posted by Kharan You people can't be serious, now are you? Have you ever experienced a good touchscreen implementation, like those on Canon or Panasonic cameras? Of course you haven't, which disqualifies all of your useless "reasoning" since you have no experience with those at all. And your snotty comment is out of place... how can you know what experiences we have? Don't draw conclusions like that... if it works for you and you like it doesn't mean the whole world has to like it. Deal with it.