Forgot Password
Pentax Camera Forums Home
 

Reply
Show Printable Version Search this Thread
09-12-2008, 08:17 PM   #196
cyg
Senior Member




Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Ottawa, ON
Posts: 134
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
New entry-level camera is what a lot of Pentaxians need. It's ideal for using pancakes and smaller than K200D. K200D will be changed with new model -
either Samsung will continue to make GX200, or Pentax will launch K300D close to PMA.

Is this new camera you saw smaller than the DS/DL ?

There is definitely a need for a smaller and lighter camera entry level.

If it is as competitive feature-wise as the K10D / K20D / K200D it would be excellent.

There is no need to sacrifice too much to make it smaller -- I believe Pentax has a history of making small cameras with competitve feature sets.

09-12-2008, 08:43 PM   #197
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by cyg Quote
Is this new camera you saw smaller than the DS/DL ?

There is definitely a need for a smaller and lighter camera entry level.

If it is as competitive feature-wise as the K10D / K20D / K200D it would be excellent.

There is no need to sacrifice too much to make it smaller -- I believe Pentax has a history of making small cameras with competitve feature sets.
Wait a bit. Pentax will show camera very soon.
09-13-2008, 01:08 AM   #198
Inactive Account




Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Gloucester UK
Posts: 441
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
Wait a bit. Pentax will show camera very soon.
This thread is now worse than anything on DPR, more speculation and handwringing than ever!

I don't believe Pentax will release any details of new items until the day before Photokina (22 Sept) and that many peoples expectations may well be dashed, and a bit of a dissapointment to some. I may be wrong, but I just have this gut feeling.
09-13-2008, 02:00 AM   #199
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 841
QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
The whole idea is to streamline the design and logistics by using as many common parts as possible across the range. Now for the first time Pentax has 2 cameras that share a lot of internal components and it's logical as one system improves it will replace the older one across the range also. In 10 days it will have at least 3 cameras so the need is even bigger.
But the K20D and K200D are a bit different internally.
The K200D uses the K10D image processing pipeline in a modified K100D body.
The *ist D-serie shared more components together, all models (*ist D, DS and DL) were based upon the same image processing pipeline. The *ist D and DS shared the same viewfinder etc.

To cut costs, it would benefit for Pentax to have the Samsung CMOS across the whole line but yes, it was probably too expensive to start with but it should be possible to implement it now and thus spreading the new image pipeline from the K20D down to the lower models. The K10D image processing is, on today's marketplace, soon not competetive. Things moves very fast.

09-13-2008, 02:19 AM   #200
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
But the K20D and K200D are a bit different internally.
The K200D uses the K10D image processing pipeline in a modified K100D body.
The *ist D-serie shared more components together, all models (*ist D, DS and DL) were based upon the same image processing pipeline. The *ist D and DS shared the same viewfinder etc.

To cut costs, it would benefit for Pentax to have the Samsung CMOS across the whole line but yes, it was probably too expensive to start with but it should be possible to implement it now and thus spreading the new image pipeline from the K20D down to the lower models. The K10D image processing is, on today's marketplace, soon not competetive. Things moves very fast.
No. K200D uses K20D's processor engine and K200D's picture is another and not similiar to K10D, less noise, another colours, and the body differs from K100D's body.
The differences between K200D and K100D are MORE than you think.
09-13-2008, 03:00 AM   #201
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 841
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
No. K200D uses K20D's processor engine and K200D's picture is another and not similiar to K10D, less noise, another colours, and the body differs from K100D's body.
The differences between K200D and K100D are MORE than you think.
Different colours and less noise are programming. I know the K200D has updated firmware and image processing algorithms, but it is still based upon the image processing pipeline from the K10D with the same Sony 10Mp CCD and similar SR system as the K10D (beacuse it was designed for the 10Mp sensor, the K20D SR system is optimised for the thinner and lower weight CMOS) and it still has the AA batteries and pentamirror viewfinder from the K100D and same control layout and buttons from the K100D so it is not much K20D in there - but yes the software does have some algorithms and ideas borrowed from the K20D and of course the RAW button.

So in practically it is a K10D in a *modified* K100D body with some software algorithms from K20D. Do note that I wrote "modified", I did not write that it was the same body. But everyone can see that it shares the same design elements and buttons and viewfinder as the K100D, but in a larger package because of the weather sealing. So therefore "modified".
09-13-2008, 04:37 AM   #202
Veteran Member
Zebooka's Avatar

Join Date: May 2008
Location: Russia, Siberia, Novosibirsk
Posts: 323
You are wrong because K200D and K10D use different A/D converter. And A/D Conv. affects on colours
09-13-2008, 04:43 AM   #203
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,176
Original Poster
K200D has 14 bit PRIME, K10D has 22 bit NuCore.
14 bit PRIME is the same in K20D.
I uses K10D and K200D. Different results. It's different cameras.

09-13-2008, 04:48 AM   #204
ogl
Pentaxian
ogl's Avatar

Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Siberia
Photos: Gallery | Albums
Posts: 7,176
Original Poster
QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Different colours and less noise are programming. I know the K200D has updated firmware and image processing algorithms, but it is still based upon the image processing pipeline from the K10D with the same Sony 10Mp CCD and similar SR system as the K10D (beacuse it was designed for the 10Mp sensor, the K20D SR system is optimised for the thinner and lower weight CMOS) and it still has the AA batteries and pentamirror viewfinder from the K100D and same control layout and buttons from the K100D so it is not much K20D in there - but yes the software does have some algorithms and ideas borrowed from the K20D and of course the RAW button.

So in practically it is a K10D in a *modified* K100D body with some software algorithms from K20D. Do note that I wrote "modified", I did not write that it was the same body. But everyone can see that it shares the same design elements and buttons and viewfinder as the K100D, but in a larger package because of the weather sealing. So therefore "modified".
You think in wrong way. Take K200D and try it.
It's NEW CAMERA with elements of K20D and K100D with ABSOLUTELY NEW BODY and 10 MP sensor.
It's NEW camera and it's one the best Pentax machine with low noise, not worse than K20D, close to 6 MP cameras.
09-13-2008, 05:04 AM   #205
RaduA
Guest




QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
But the K20D and K200D are a bit different internally.
The K200D uses the K10D image processing pipeline in a modified K100D body.

At the hardware level I think K20D and K200D are almost identical except for the sensor of course. For sure they have different bodies, OVF, and memory buffer sizes but they share the same processor, I would guess even the most mainboard, exposure system, AF system, shutter and mirror box. So I say the most of the difference are in software rather than hardware which is good.

The *ist D-serie shared more components together, all models (*ist D, DS and DL) were based upon the same image processing pipeline. The *ist D and DS shared the same viewfinder etc.

To cut costs, it would benefit for Pentax to have the Samsung CMOS across the whole line but yes, it was probably too expensive to start with but it should be possible to implement it now and thus spreading the new image pipeline from the K20D down to the lower models. The K10D image processing is, on today's marketplace, soon not competetive. Things moves very fast.

Yes and no and let me explain my point. There are a lot of features buyers covet for and for sure some are wanted by many and others by a very few. But all boils down to the final cost and the price/performance+features ratio. It you look at the very entry level all models have at least some major drawbacks and this is a result of the reality. You cannot make something from almost nothing. Also remember that even Nikon has the same sensor in its D60 (and it sales very well).
The 10 Mp Sony sensor is more than adequate for the price target K2000D is aimed at and all of its competitors are also 10 Mp (and all are pretty new cameras - C 1000D is only a few months old). Remember that C and N must add IS to their kit lenses which makes the whole camera kit more expensive. In fact at the very bottom of the market I think Sony is our main enemy now and to a lesser extent Oly. Also a 14,6 Mp sensor will put pressure on the users computers which could be a drawback on this kind of market.
Also this sensor is the best known at Pentax and it saw many improvements in IQ over the various cameras it was in. Also ATM there is one more bonus for Pentax: they can buy larger quantities fron Sony (hopefully at better price per unit) and after K2000D production and sales takes off they could upgrade only the K200D with another sensor and maintain the better deal with Sony.
One last fact is that sensor is only a part of the image pipeline, there are others at least as important and a new processor (Prime 2 for example) will improve even more some aspects of the final IQ across the board.

.........
Radu
09-13-2008, 05:15 AM   #206
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 841
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
K200D has 14 bit PRIME, K10D has 22 bit NuCore.
14 bit PRIME is the same in K20D.
I uses K10D and K200D. Different results. It's different cameras.
Now you're talking about two different things.
The 22 bit NuCore in the K10D is the A/D converter.
The PRIME sits at the end of the image processing pipeline, after the A/D.
K10D, K200D and K20D - all have the PRIME.
The difference in colours between K10D and K200D comes from different programming in the image processing unit the PRIME.

The K20D has A/D conversion on the sensor, so it does not need to have a separate A/D, like the K10D and K200D have.

I know that the K200D and K10D are different cameras, I have never said that they were the same cameras.

Last edited by RMabo; 09-13-2008 at 05:27 AM.
09-13-2008, 05:23 AM   #207
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 841
QuoteOriginally posted by ogl Quote
You think in wrong way. Take K200D and try it.
It's NEW CAMERA with elements of K20D and K100D with ABSOLUTELY NEW BODY and 10 MP sensor.
It's NEW camera and it's one the best Pentax machine with low noise, not worse than K20D, close to 6 MP cameras.
And you misread me again. Now I write this for the third time - modified.
The K200D uses a MODIFIED K100D design. Modified does not mean it has the same design, it means that it shares design elements. That the design base for the K200D is the K100D design. Another way of saying this is that the K200D design is inspired by the K100D design. The K200D looks like a slightly enlarged K100D. This is what I mean with a modified design. Look at the *ist D, DS and DL - they all are modifications, or variations, on the same basic design or design theme. And yet they are three different cameras yes. I have never written that the K200D was the same camera as the K100D, just that it uses a modified design. I'm sorry if this upsets you.

I have never said that the K200D and K100D shares the same design. I have written three times now - modified. You claim that I'm wrong, but I don't think that I'm the only one that see similarities in the design between the K200D and the K100D, they have more similarities to their external design than K200D and K20D have.

I believe we have a language problem here and I'm sorry but I don't know how to express myself clearer than I do.

Last edited by RMabo; 09-13-2008 at 05:42 AM.
09-13-2008, 05:41 AM   #208
Veteran Member




Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Sweden
Posts: 841
QuoteOriginally posted by RaduA Quote
At the hardware level I think K20D and K200D are almost identical except for the sensor of course. For sure they have different bodies, OVF, and memory buffer sizes but they share the same processor, I would guess even the most mainboard, exposure system, AF system, shutter and mirror box. So I say the most of the difference are in software rather than hardware which is good.
Not just the sensor, the A/D is different because the K20D does not need a separate A/D. It's built on the sensor (and this is one of the reasons to why the noise floor is lower, because it has a shorter signal path). Yes they do uses the same AF, shutter, metering systems etc, like the *Ist-serie also did (and those parts in the K-serie is the same as in the previous *ist-serie) but the *ist-serie also had the same sensor across the line so the hardware that did differ was the viewfinder (between the *ist D and DS, it was not even the viewfinder that differed...). So differencies between K20D and K200D are more than between *ist D and DS. Sensor is probably the most expensive part in the camera, and I still believe it would be a benefit for Pentax if this CMOS was used from the top to the bottom end.

It won't be long before we see the 12Mp sensors from Nikon and Canon in their entry level offerings, and then it won't be too long before the 15Mp CMOS in Canon 50D hits the 500D and then the 2000D.

With the 14Mp CMOS, Pentax did offer more than the other makers.
If they offer just 10Mp for entry level, than this feels old and outdated, especially when the competition has new 12Mp models just around the corner. It's time for Pentax to be ahead of the comptition, also in the entry level budget segment.
09-13-2008, 06:21 AM   #209
RaduA
Guest




QuoteOriginally posted by RMabo Quote
Not just the sensor, the A/D is different because the K20D does not need a separate A/D. It's built on the sensor (and this is one of the reasons to why the noise floor is lower, because it has a shorter signal path). Yes they do uses the same AF, shutter, metering systems etc, like the *Ist-serie also did (and those parts in the K-serie is the same as in the previous *ist-serie) but the *ist-serie also had the same sensor across the line so the hardware that did differ was the viewfinder (between the *ist D and DS, it was not even the viewfinder that differed...). So differencies between K20D and K200D are more than between *ist D and DS. Sensor is probably the most expensive part in the camera, and I still believe it would be a benefit for Pentax if this CMOS was used from the top to the bottom end.

It's a matter I could only speculate about since I have zero business infos about this.

It won't be long before we see the 12Mp sensors from Nikon and Canon in their entry level offerings, and then it won't be too long before the 15Mp CMOS in Canon 50D hits the 500D and then the 2000D.

I am not sure about Nikon but ATM they still relly on Sony for sensors. And Canon launched 1000D just a few months ago and it's not that cheap and with serious drawbacks. I wouldn't see it replaced sooner than H2 2009

With the 14Mp CMOS, Pentax did offer more than the other makers.
If they offer just 10Mp for entry level, than this feels old and outdated, especially when the competition has new 12Mp models just around the corner. It's time for Pentax to be ahead of the comptition, also in the entry level budget segment.

Please remember that Pentax created DA 18-55 II for the 14,6 Mp sensor. You either must bundle in kit with all cameras (and increase even further costs) or use the previous version and compromise on quality. In the end there are too many upgrades necessary to make a very entry level camera feasable for the average class cost let alone to make it the cheapest.
Again, I believe Pentax must undercut prices of the 2 big guys in the very entry level and watch out for Sony too which has build a big boost in sales on the very low cost cameras with decent features. In the world I believe for the low cost market the smallest price will beat better price/features ratio more often than not.

I could see an upgraded K200D with a longer DA zoom (18-105 let's say) weather sealed zoom and with the 14 Mp sensor. That makes sense IMO and further separates the entry level from the next level.

.......
Radu
09-13-2008, 08:56 AM   #210
New Member




Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Lithuanuia
Posts: 6
And the finally we have image of Pentax k2000d


Reply

Bookmarks
  • Submit Thread to Facebook Facebook
  • Submit Thread to Twitter Twitter
  • Submit Thread to Digg Digg
Tags - Make this thread easier to find by adding keywords to it!
k2000d, low-end, model, pentax, pentax news, pentax rumors, photokina
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Low End Film scanners? magkelly Digital Processing, Software, and Printing 7 09-09-2010 04:53 PM
Nature Low-light flower close-up planedriver Post Your Photos! 6 04-14-2010 07:17 PM
Poll - $2500 low end FF or Hi-spec APS-C? - Please read initial post before voting Richard Day Pentax News and Rumors 126 02-15-2010 03:08 PM
Close-up cacaphony *warning creepy stuff at the end Igilligan Post Your Photos! 19 02-22-2009 12:33 PM
Pentax low end pricing. nixcamic Photographic Technique 10 08-20-2008 02:20 PM



All times are GMT -7. The time now is 03:09 AM. | See also: NikonForums.com, CanonForums.com part of our network of photo forums!
  • Red (Default)
  • Green
  • Gray
  • Dark
  • Dark Yellow
  • Dark Blue
  • Old Red
  • Old Green
  • Old Gray
  • Dial-Up Style
Hello! It's great to see you back on the forum! Have you considered joining the community?
register
Creating a FREE ACCOUNT takes under a minute, removes ads, and lets you post! [Dismiss]
Top