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02-05-2015, 03:39 AM - 1 Like   #256
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It just doesn't surprise me that this lens would be parked north of 2000 dollars. It may end up selling for somewhat less than Canon/Nikon equivalents during sales, but it won't ever be cheap. The bigger question is what the full frame camera will be, both with regard to specifications and price. Looks to me like it will be similar to the D800, but priced quite a bit less (I saw 2300 as a guessed price). That certainly would fit well with what Ricoh has done so far with cameras like the 645Z and the K3.

02-05-2015, 10:54 AM   #257
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The thing here is that Ricoh will need to grow the FF market kind of fast.. if they put a FF body for around the $3000 ( like D810 or 5Dmk3 ) their market is going to move slower.. and also, Canikons will not be attracted by that catch ( price ).. of course, we cant expect something like $1500... but perhaps we can expect something around the $2000 (perhaps a little more) that is a good price for a FF great body with top end technology.. that will be very very veeery attractive. They did it with the 645Z, when all the other MF were going for $25.000 or more.. Pentax came with a great camera for $9000 .. and what happen? within a year they became really popular among the MF market... perhaps they can do the same within the FF market so they can catch costumers too... more costumers = more sales in glass.. if they want to sell the glass ( and i mean all the new glass that they will release ), they need to have as many costumers as they can.
02-05-2015, 11:08 AM   #258
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QuoteOriginally posted by twitch Quote
Better start doing those arm curls to cope with the new 70-200. The Pentax is 1.76kg without hood or collar, and a full 2kg with both

By comparison:
Canon: 1.49kg
Nikon: 1.54kg
Sony: 1.3kg
Glass and metal !!!!
02-05-2015, 12:00 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
if they put a FF body for around the $3000 ( like D810 or 5Dmk3 ) their market is going to move slower.. and also, Canikons will not be attracted by that catch
FF is approximately 10% of the current market for DSLRs, and the market for all DSLRs has shrunk by approximately a third in the last few years. I would have to look up the figures to be exact, but you can get the idea that the market for just FF DSLRs might be growing, but only because it was a very small market a few years ago. What growth, if any, in FF sales will come from owners of DSLRs in other formats switching to FF, not from new DSLR customers. And the typical owner of a FF DSLR is not going to have only a kit lens. By the time the FF DSLR owner purchases his second lens, he probably has as much invested in lenses as in the camera body. You can't readily use Nikon and Canon lenses on a Pentax camera, so switching brands involves an expense at least double what it costs to switch bodies. Most Pentax FF sales will come from existing Pentax users, the few switchers from other brands will be looking for something better than what they currently have, not something cheaper.

There is no point in a camera manufacturer trying to build a market for a FF DLSR by selling less expensive bodies than the competition, unless that manufacturer already has a more expensive FF camera in their lineup, or that manufacturer has so little business from DSLRs in other formats, that they see cheap FF cameras as a way to keep their manufacturing facilities operating.

02-05-2015, 01:05 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
FF is approximately 10% of the current market for DSLRs, and the market for all DSLRs has shrunk by approximately a third in the last few years. I would have to look up the figures to be exact, but you can get the idea that the market for just FF DSLRs might be growing, but only because it was a very small market a few years ago. What growth, if any, in FF sales will come from owners of DSLRs in other formats switching to FF, not from new DSLR customers. And the typical owner of a FF DSLR is not going to have only a kit lens. By the time the FF DSLR owner purchases his second lens, he probably has as much invested in lenses as in the camera body. You can't readily use Nikon and Canon lenses on a Pentax camera, so switching brands involves an expense at least double what it costs to switch bodies. Most Pentax FF sales will come from existing Pentax users, the few switchers from other brands will be looking for something better than what they currently have, not something cheaper.

There is no point in a camera manufacturer trying to build a market for a FF DLSR by selling less expensive bodies than the competition, unless that manufacturer already has a more expensive FF camera in their lineup, or that manufacturer has so little business from DSLRs in other formats, that they see cheap FF cameras as a way to keep their manufacturing facilities operating.
I'am not so sure I would see it like that.

A bit more than half of the DSLR buyers never buy a lense after the first day and just use the kit lenses. And the other half is couting all the guys that finally just buy a consumer grad f/4-5.6 tele or an DA50 f/1.8...

I thing that the guy investing in FF do much more often invest in their gear and invest much more overall than the APSC users. If we would put average spend per year I would say an APSC user spend maybe 200$/year on gear on average (with many $100/years or less and a few spending much more) while I would think the average spend per year on FF would be more like 1000$.

Futhermore, arround the few percent of APSC users spending a lot on the system, a good share already have or want an FF anyway.

This may be only 10% of the market in volume, but it may be more like 30-40% of the cash and 50% of the benefits.
02-05-2015, 01:18 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote

There is no point in a camera manufacturer trying to build a market for a FF DLSR by selling less expensive bodies than the competition
So how can you explain what happend with the 645Z that is around the $9000 when the competition is around $25000 ?? .. and so far it worked, Pentax 645Z is well positioned at the MF market.

Thinking like that is to think in a small Pentax market.. i dont think that they want to keep having an small market, they want to get bigger, and in order to get bigger fast they need great equipment at great prices ( less expensive doenst mean cheap products ). Ricoh is thinking big, they want to be big, and just focusing on the tiny Pentax market that we have now is not enough. They will need those high end APS-C users and something to attract new shooters, as i said, great equipment + a great price could be something that will help build fast a FF base of users. I can understand that the new zooms arent cheap, but they need a market to put those glasses, a market that grows fast.

Ofcourse i dont think that they will come out with a $1500 body.. but something between the $2200 and $2500 could work. Perhaps $2000.

Last edited by kooks; 02-05-2015 at 01:29 PM.
02-05-2015, 01:24 PM   #262
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
So how can you explain what happend with the 645Z that is around the $9000 when the competition is around $25000 ?? .. and so far it worked, Pentax 645Z is well positioned at the MF market.
The unique combination of a new sensor that costs 15% of the Big Boys', an experienced maker with a full complement of existing (if old) lenses in inventory, existing internal technology already developed for the K-3 (don't kid yourself - the 645Z is a souped up K-3, not the other way around) and ZERO competition in their distribution channel.

The FF market is precisely the opposite of each of these preconditions.
02-05-2015, 01:26 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
So how can you explain what happend with the 645Z that is around the $9000 when the competition is around $25000 ?? .. and so far it worked, Pentax 645Z is well positioned at the MF market.
It's not like the Pentax is cheaper, the competition is way too inefficient and expensive
The difference is that Pentax/Ricoh Imaging have other camera products (in particular APS-C), allowing them to share R&D/components, the distribution network, post-sale services, marketing... of course, they don't have any such advantage on the small format market (on the contrary, they're at a disadvantage there).

02-05-2015, 01:50 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Most Pentax FF sales will come from existing Pentax users, the few switchers from other brands will be looking for something better than what they currently have, not something cheaper.
Not necessarily. While it's true that Pentax can't hope to very many Canikon FF users, anyone shooting smaller sensor cameras, whether Pentax, Nikon, Canon, mirrorless, whatever, are fair game. If all you own is m43 or APS-C glass, then any sort of move to FF is going to involve buying all new glass. So there's a bigger market than just Pentax APS-C users out there.
02-05-2015, 01:56 PM   #265
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is there any info if the lense protudes when zooming?
02-05-2015, 02:13 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
is there any info if the lense protudes when zooming?
The absence of a zoom lock switch (present on the 150~400) might infer internal zoom, but I haven't seen explicit statement that the lens actually IS internal zoom.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-05-2015 at 02:24 PM.
02-05-2015, 02:16 PM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The unique combination of a new sensor that costs 15% of the Big Boys', an experienced maker with a full complement of existing (if old) lenses in inventory, existing internal technology already developed for the K-3 (don't kid yourself - the 645Z is a souped up K-3, not the other way around) and ZERO competition in their distribution channel.

The FF market is precisely the opposite of each of these preconditions.
experienced make: yes
full complement of existing (if old) lense: yes
existing internal technology developper for the k3: yes

Look like if they price the camera they tick another condition and there just remain the competition for the distribution channel as only argument.
02-05-2015, 02:18 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
the competition for the distribution channel as only argument.
But the competiton is formidable.
02-05-2015, 02:18 PM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by infoomatic Quote
is there any info if the lense protudes when zooming?
Both will be internally focusing.

The 70-200 will also be internally zooming, but the 150-450 will protrude during zooming.
02-05-2015, 02:25 PM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
But the competiton is formidable.
True but competing on price and feature can be a very valid strategy. Sony does it already but remove the OVF, Pentax could do it, keeping the OVF. Counting they would have already many more native AF lense to put on it, no reason they could not get some market share.

As for the lense everybody think it should sell as much as the other... But nobody remember to say the Pentax as no OS, that should allow them to reduce their costs a bit, and sell it for lesser price after 1 year or something.
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