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11-10-2015, 12:56 PM   #1351
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not on your list but still available there is a Tamron 70-200/2.8 without image stabilisation. It is a screw drive lens but enjoys a rather favourable reputation amongst Pentaxians.

@Mistral75: Do you think there is any chance that the price of the Pentax 70-200 will come down after a while?

How do you convince someone who is not invested in a system yet to choose Pentax when key lenses are more expensive than the top price lenses from Canikon despite the fact that they do not need to implement image stabilisation?

AFAIC, camera ergonomics and pricing have been a strong argument in favour of Pentax, but there are of course other trade-offs like ubiquity of dealers / fellow users, so how do I explain to someone that it is worth paying more for Pentax lenses?

A salesman could argue that most people will change their camera more often than their lenses and hence the Pentax price balance is the better one long-term, but I'm not sure how many customers would be susceptible to this kind of argument.
In the end, for this lens, for the 150-450, for the 24-70 and also for the FF I think Pentax target market is not for people that are after a price. They are more after professionnal and enthousiasts that if they were choosing Nikon or Canon will have anyway to spend already 5000-10000$ in gear and that care more to have the gear covering their actual needs than after a bargain of 500$ for the whole pack.

Pentax will concentrate on providing some unique features that will make Pentaxr gear more interresting than the existing Canon/Nikon offering. This will not have to be for everybody, or for every FF user, but just to provide a big enough market for them to make a profit and use the FF as a vector for growth.

Part of the unique features could be an FF with K-mount and Pentax brand to grab some fans. This would be enought to convince many people here, many old Pentaxian and K-mount users. This could be pixel shift, in body shake reduction, better ergonomics and set of high quality yet small limited primes for when you don't need the big, fat, zooms. This could be other things we don't know yet.

Anyway, that's my understanding. If you want an FF and you are after a price, I'll be blunt, Pentax might not be the choice for you, at least for the next 2 years. If you want a deal on an FF system now or in 6 months, there chances you could find something more interresting with Nikon and a set of tamron/sigma lenses, at least for the short term. But if you are after some great gear, something a bit different than what is available today or if you'd like something with Pentax brand or K-mount, then I'll say you should keep an eye on what is happening.


Last edited by Nicolas06; 11-10-2015 at 01:03 PM.
11-11-2015, 12:59 AM   #1352
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cannikin Quote
The price of the DFA 150-450 has fallen nearly $600 from its introductory price in about 6 months.
Thanks for pointing this out.

I was referring to older Pentax lenses, but it is good to see that prices seem to be more subject to adaptation with the new models. Having said that, I think at the introductory price the DFA 150-450 was overpriced and I'd prefer a reasonable introductory price with more long-term stability.

There may (or may not) be a working business model of overcharging early adopters who are going to pay almost any price and then coming down more and more to collect more buyers, but large price cuts are detrimental to the conservation of value perception of a brand and also cause worse than necessary "value for money" ratings in reviews. Reviewers almost never go back and adjust the respective rating and/or comparisons to similar products once a street price has been established, so an unfavourable rating will typically stick around forever.
11-11-2015, 01:21 AM   #1353
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
In the end, for this lens, for the 150-450, for the 24-70 and also for the FF I think Pentax target market is not for people that are after a price.
I get your point, but at the end of the day, price always matters.

Its not like you cannot take decent images with the equipment Canikon is currently offering and I cannot think of many people who would be prepared to pay more for Pentax equipment just to get some features like pixelshift or slightly smaller primes (the f/1.8 primes from Canikon are not heavy either and excellent optically).

Now if Ricoh uses one of their patents to remove the mirror to implement some insane frames per second performance and attains top-level AF continuous tracking then that's a completely different story. Then you have a product with a significant unique selling proposition that may become a "must have" for a certain type of photographer. However, as long as the products are more or less comparable then why pay more?

Not to mention that currently
  • P-TTL is outdated compared to i-TTL / E-TTL.
  • continuous AF performance is behind the top Canikon models.
  • there is no professional support network comparable to that of Canikon.
While I would not recommend to Ricoh to engage in price fights, I feel that at this point prices cannot be unreasonable and Ricoh seems to agree to some extent when they reduce lens prices (e.g. for the 560/5.6 and DFA 150-450).

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Anyway, that's my understanding. If you want an FF and you are after a price, I'll be blunt, Pentax might not be the choice for you, at least for the next 2 years.
I do not endorse cut-throat, non-sustainable Yongnuo-type pricing models. However, I'm not a fan of what I regard as overcharging either. If a company's only explanation for a certain product price is "We charge that much because we can." then I'm typically not their customer.

In any event, I'm 100% confident that the price for the K-1 will be attractive and that I'll be more than happy to pay it. Pentax do not have a history of overpricing cameras and I don't think they'll start now. It wouldn't be a smart move either.
11-11-2015, 06:09 AM   #1354
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
There may (or may not) be a working business model of overcharging early adopters who are going to pay almost any price and then coming down more and more to collect more buyers, but large price cuts are detrimental to the conservation of value perception of a brand and also cause worse than necessary "value for money" ratings in reviews.
I'm willing to bet the people at Ricoh have thought this through After all, they are currently profitable, which is more than can be said of Nikon recently.

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Reviewers almost never go back and adjust the respective rating and/or comparisons to similar products once a street price has been established, so an unfavourable rating will typically stick around forever.
Reviewers generally put a link towards B&H

QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Its not like you cannot take decent images with the equipment Canikon is currently offering and I cannot think of many people who would be prepared to pay more for Pentax equipment just to get some features like pixelshift or slightly smaller primes
Ricoh stated that the Pentax FF is not meant to fight against Canikon. It's meant to offer an upgrade path to current Pentax users.

WR through and through, stellar ergonomics and a few perks (like pixel shift, a swiveling LCD, etc) will draw some people to the brand, that's just icing on the cake.

11-11-2015, 06:38 AM   #1355
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I do not endorse cut-throat, non-sustainable Yongnuo-type pricing models. However, I'm not a fan of what I regard as overcharging either. If a company's only explanation for a certain product price is "We charge that much because we can." then I'm typically not their customer.
This is VERY subjective and typically most companies will charge as much as they can.

This is particularity true with premium items like digital FF cameras. The sensor may be more expensive, but you could sell an FF new for 600-800$ if a K30 can be brought for $300. It would be maybe a K30 with a bigger sensor basically but that perfectly viable price. And when you think of it, the K50 is just a K30 with a different name. But it allowed Pentax to ask more money for it.

If you finally buy an FF camera then you really decide to buy something that is charged that much because they can.
11-11-2015, 06:44 AM   #1356
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I do not endorse cut-throat, non-sustainable Yongnuo-type pricing models.
I don't think they are cheap for what you get. The 1st year failure rate seems to be very high.
11-11-2015, 07:21 AM   #1357
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
After all, they are currently profitable, which is more than can be said of Nikon recently.
Ricoh as a whole or Ricoh Imaging?
11-11-2015, 07:24 AM   #1358
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
I don't think they are cheap for what you get. The 1st year failure rate seems to be very high.
Agreed, and I'd say it's not just the questionable reliability that challenges their "value for money" proposition but also the usability and compatibility issues.

I mentioned Yongnuo because even though you pretty much get what you pay for, they still represent a problem to other manufacturers whose products are suddenly labelled as expensive even though their prices are entirely reasonable.

That's why I don't endorse rock-bottom pricing because even though it seems like a great deal for customers initially, ultimately customers are losing out not only by what they receive for a low price, but also by the competition not being able to innovate at such non-sustainable low price wars.

11-11-2015, 07:36 AM   #1359
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This is VERY subjective and typically most companies will charge as much as they can.
But typically there is enough competition to put a limit on what can be charged.

I also maintain that there is a notion of a "fair" price. Most will respond to that by stating that I don't understand capitalism but then a large majority also condemmed what Martin Shkreli did to the price of Daraprim.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
If you finally buy an FF camera then you really decide to buy something that is charged that much because they can.
I disagree. I anticipate the price of the K-1 to be less than what could be charged, i.e., we won't be seeing another Sigma SD1 debacle.

A "fair" price to me doesn't not mean that there is absolutely no way to further reduce the profit, it just means that profits aren't obscene.
11-11-2015, 07:43 AM - 1 Like   #1360
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More news around the 70-200 will come on friday.
11-11-2015, 07:44 AM   #1361
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Reviewers generally put a link towards B&H
But they don't update their unfavourable text and/or ratings.

QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
... will draw some people to the brand, that's just icing on the cake.
That cannot be their strategy (it would be foolish) and it is also in contradiction to what we hear from kenspo, for instance.
11-11-2015, 08:01 AM   #1362
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
More news around the 70-200 will come on friday.
Hanging out for this.
11-11-2015, 08:16 AM - 1 Like   #1363
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
Ricoh stated that the Pentax FF is not meant to fight against Canikon. It's meant to offer an upgrade path to current Pentax users.
That is wrong. Pentax needs more/new users to stay in the game. One of the reasons they signed me, was to attract more pros to consider Pentax. So just no...
11-11-2015, 08:37 AM   #1364
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
But typically there is enough competition to put a limit on what can be charged.

I also maintain that there is a notion of a "fair" price. Most will respond to that by stating that I don't understand capitalism but then a large majority also condemmed what Martin Shkreli did to the price of Daraprim.


I disagree. I anticipate the price of the K-1 to be less than what could be charged, i.e., we won't be seeing another Sigma SD1 debacle.

A "fair" price to me doesn't not mean that there is absolutely no way to further reduce the profit, it just means that profits aren't obscene.
Fair price is purely subjective. Depend as much on the way you see things as the actual product price and features. As what are obscene profits, it is not clear at all to me what you want to imply. Pentax a smaller company, they have less scale effect and may need to ask more to recoup that. Is that obscene ?

Maybe the lens they produce is also better overall. It is sure heavier at least. Maybe if it provide better results they have higher cost too and can ask for more? That can be completely justified...

Everywhere people are willing to pay much more for WR while the investment for the brand is no more than a few $ per unit.

You see, that's not that easy to say what is fair or not.
11-11-2015, 08:50 AM   #1365
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
That is wrong. Pentax needs more/new users to stay in the game. One of the reasons they signed me, was to attract more pros to consider Pentax. So just no...
I doubt the mass of new customers will come from the full frame market. It's entirely possible, however I think entry-level products like the K-S2 will draw more people.

That's not to say no pros could/should migrate to Pentax. The company isn't likely to push those away. I was just referring to an interview done a while ago where they said they didn't want to go head-to-head with Canikon, because it's a difficult, uphill battle.
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