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11-11-2015, 08:53 AM   #1366
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Pentax a smaller company, they have less scale effect and may need to ask more to recoup that. Is that obscene ?
Of course not.

Not to be pedantic but note that Pentax isn't a company anymore. Ricoh is the company and the reason why this is relevant here is because Ricoh has the stamina to grow Pentax into a significant brand again. They don't necessarily need to make the margins from day one that they aspire to get in the long run. So I don't think the "small volume" argument can be fully applied. If Ricoh isn't prepared to invest first, they may not make it at all.

QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
You see, that's not that easy to say what is fair or not.
I did not claim it is easy to figure out when a price constitutes daylight robbery, is fair, or is non-sustainable.

However, by looking at competing products, observing how prices develop over time, and taking note of temporary discounts, I think one can get a sense of the margins.

Still, it certainly isn't easy but I guess outliers are identifiable in this manner.

11-11-2015, 08:56 AM - 1 Like   #1367
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
That is wrong. Pentax needs more/new users to stay in the game. One of the reasons they signed me, was to attract more pros to consider Pentax. So just no...
I agree... let's be honest, a large number of Pentaxians are frugal (look at the sheer number of threads of folks begging for backwards compatibility). By definition, if you are buying a 40 year old lens, then that money is not going in Ricoh's pocket. They need products that excite folks that are not current Pentaxians.
11-11-2015, 08:57 AM   #1368
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
That is wrong. Pentax needs more/new users to stay in the game. One of the reasons they signed me, was to attract more pros to consider Pentax. So just no...
From what I've read from the interviews scattered all over the web during the last year or so, Ricoh have several elements to their FF strategy:

- attract pros, like you say;
- expand the Pentax ecosystem of hardware, services, support [related to the above];
- strengthen the Pentax brand [which is related to attracting pros];
- reward [and retain via an upgrade path] dedicated Pentax users, many of who have been waiting for a FF for a long time.

But who really knows why they are doing the FF. The whole FF push may be just a personal project of one of the Ricoh Vice Presidents or something, and not part of some grand Ricoh business strategy.
11-11-2015, 09:21 AM   #1369
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Not to be pedantic but note that Pentax isn't a company anymore. Ricoh is the company and the reason why this is relevant here is because Ricoh has the stamina to grow Pentax into a significant brand again. They don't necessarily need to make the margins from day one that they aspire to get in the long run. So I don't think the "small volume" argument can be fully applied. If Ricoh isn't prepared to invest first, they may not make it at all.
Not to be pedantic, but the company is Ricoh Imaging
RI benefits from being part of the Ricoh Group, but it has to stand on their own (i.e. make a profit) and they are a small company; their resources are limited.
And being in the camera business is not a walk in the park; Ricoh Imaging is probably making a profit, however Olympus barely managed to recover, there's talk about Samsung exiting the camera business...

11-11-2015, 09:53 AM   #1370
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
they didn't want to go head-to-head with Canikon, because it's a difficult, uphill battle.
Then you need to understand what they did talk about! And not just saying that Ricoh stated this to stated that. Especially when its wrong!
11-11-2015, 10:36 AM   #1371
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QuoteOriginally posted by bdery Quote
I doubt the mass of new customers will come from the full frame market. It's entirely possible, however I think entry-level products like the K-S2 will draw more people.

That's not to say no pros could/should migrate to Pentax. The company isn't likely to push those away. I was just referring to an interview done a while ago where they said they didn't want to go head-to-head with Canikon, because it's a difficult, uphill battle.
The number of people coming to Pentax buying the FF would likely be small as FF is 10% of the DSLR market after all. But if Pentax manage to get a good share of that very lucrative 10%, that may be success and a way to increase brand recognition too.
11-11-2015, 10:55 AM   #1372
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
The number of people coming to Pentax buying the FF would likely be small as FF is 10% of the DSLR market after all. But if Pentax manage to get a good share of that very lucrative 10%, that may be success and a way to increase brand recognition too.
And brand prestige also!

I'm confident that a certain number of Canon sales are a result of prestige that rubs off on lower Canon products from the visibility of white lenses at high-profile sports events.
11-11-2015, 12:35 PM   #1373
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
And brand prestige also!

I'm confident that a certain number of Canon sales are a result of prestige that rubs off on lower Canon products from the visibility of white lenses at high-profile sports events.
That's for sure ! And the buyers don't make a bad choice: Canon gear does the job. They just don't know Pentax gear could do just as well and in some case be a more interresting alternative. But because they didn't heard of it and because it is not very available in shops, they don't have a chance to buy it.

11-11-2015, 04:50 PM   #1374
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I agree... let's be honest, a large number of Pentaxians are frugal (look at the sheer number of threads of folks begging for backwards compatibility). By definition, if you are buying a 40 year old lens, then that money is not going in Ricoh's pocket. They need products that excite folks that are not current Pentaxians.
I'm sure many people are quite interested in paying less, but it's not the only reason to want old lenses. There aren't all that many options for nice manual focus lenses that aren't old. I have one Samyang and two "Zeiss" (Cosina), and they are fine lenses, but so are a lot of the old lenses. And many old lenses don't have any modern replacements, especially not in K mount land.

I can't argue that they get any money directly from people buying old lenses, but I can and will argue that it's still good for the brand. I certainly wouldn't be here without some support for old lenses, limited as it is.
11-11-2015, 05:36 PM - 1 Like   #1375
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QuoteOriginally posted by drougge Quote
I can't argue that they get any money directly from people buying old lenses, but I can and will argue that it's still good for the brand. I certainly wouldn't be here without some support for old lenses, limited as it is.
It was a huge selling point for me back in 2008 when I bought a K20d as my first DSLR. Old lens support and in-body SR were the clinching factors.
11-11-2015, 07:38 PM   #1376
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I just happened to run across and re-read Imaging Resource's interview with Pentax at CP+ 2015- nothing real earth shattering, but still enlightening and an interesting reminder of what was said at that time. The full frame and lens compatibility perspective is reflected near the bottom of that interview.

CP+ 2015 Interview: Ricoh’s investment in Pentax, full-frame strategy, lens plans and more
11-11-2015, 07:50 PM   #1377
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Just to be clear, people who buy old lenses buy new stuff too. I have Retail receipts for K10d, K-01, K-3, Q-7, Q for K Converter and 4 Q lenses, DA40, Fa35, Fa50, Fa77 and probably more if I think about it.
11-11-2015, 08:05 PM   #1378
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Just to be clear, people who buy old lenses buy new stuff too. I have Retail receipts for K10d, K-01, K-3, Q-7, Q for K Converter and 4 Q lenses, DA40, Fa35, Fa50, Fa77 and probably more if I think about it.
Of course...
But no one outside of our tiny sphere is going to by a $2,500 camera for the purpose of shooting with 40 year old lenses.
And that is why Ricoh is creating this big, fast lenses. To attract non-Pentaxians
11-11-2015, 08:07 PM   #1379
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
From what I've read from the interviews scattered all over the web during the last year or so, Ricoh have several elements to their FF strategy:

- attract pros, like you say;
- expand the Pentax ecosystem of hardware, services, support [related to the above];
- strengthen the Pentax brand [which is related to attracting pros];
- reward [and retain via an upgrade path] dedicated Pentax users, many of who have been waiting for a FF for a long time.

But who really knows why they are doing the FF. The whole FF push may be just a personal project of one of the Ricoh Vice Presidents or something, and not part of some grand Ricoh business strategy.
I agree to your analysis but you don't mention the succes of the 645. It was a big surprise for Ricoh, the sells are about the bouble from expectations, I think it gives them a new perspective in the future of photo industry. Ricoh company is become, one of the biggest service company in print and take care of files for administration and business ( I don't know the business vocabulary to say that ), the logical move for Ricoh company with Pentax acquisition is to aim to pro photo market and developp what they already konws best : services !
11-11-2015, 11:40 PM   #1380
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
But no one outside of our tiny sphere is going to by a $2,500 camera for the purpose of shooting with 40 year old lenses.
Seeing the prices that old Takumars go for these days, and the numbers of people who buy them to stick them on their mirrorless Sonys, I'm not entirely convinced.
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