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05-02-2015, 05:44 AM - 5 Likes   #661
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QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
my only problems with the price is the fact that pentax has a small market share and shrinking. third party manufacturers are no longer bringing out new lenses in the K mount. so instead of trying to gain market share i feel they are gouging legacy users. i have no problem spending money if i feel that i am receiving value for my money. i just don't feel like the value is there in this case. there is no way these lenses should cost nearly three times as much as the sigma versions. pentax is making excellent products and the camera bodies are very competitively priced but then they gouge us with the glass. this is not the way to recover market share. my dad was an old gun trader and he would rather make a little at a time on a lot of stuff that make a lot on a little bit of stuff. the first way gains you customers the second way sends them elsewhere. if pentax is going to survive as a brand or even if the mount is going to survive they have to attract new shooters. and right or wrong price drives a lot if not most decisions. i love my K3 but they need to adjust prices of the glass to attract the new shooters. my 2 cents for what its worth.
I think some people are struggling to see what is happening to the K-mount range this year.
Ricoh are not (as far as I can tell) eliminating the sort of range they already have. Indeed, they appear to have brought out a number of products to add to it over (say) the last 6 months. Both cameras and lenses.

What they are doing is an extension upwards to the K-mount range. So the distance between the lowest specification and the highest-specification equipment in the K-mount range is becoming much greater.
The previous top of the range equipment will still exist, (and will continue be good value and with good size and weight), but it will no longer be the top of the range.

Some people who previously aspired to "top of the range" equipment may need to aspire to "one level under top of the range" instead.
And some people whose aspirations were beyond the previous "top if the range" are (hopefully) seeing their wishes come true!

Ricoh are doing exactly what they need to do to keep my custom. High-specification equipment at a price I am (reluctantly!) willing to pay. Keep it coming, Ricoh! It isn't what everyone wants, but some of us want it!

ps: I've received emails from SRS saying they they have my D FA 150-450mm lens, (they have told me the serial number), and are processing it. (And they have taken the money from my credit card - boo hoo!)

05-02-2015, 05:48 AM - 3 Likes   #662
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
I think some people are struggling to see what is happening to the K-mount range this year.
Ricoh are not (as far as I can tell) eliminating the sort of range they already have. Indeed, they appear to have brought out a number of products to add to it over (say) the last 6 months. Both cameras and lenses.

What they are doing is an extension upwards to the K-mount range. So the distance between the lowest specification and the highest-specification equipment in the K-mount range is becoming much greater.
The previous top of the range equipment will still exist, (and will continue be good value and with good size and weight), but it will no longer be the top of the range.

Some people who previously aspired to "top of the range" equipment may need to aspire to "one level under top of the range" instead.
And some people whose aspirations were beyond the previous "top if the range" are (hopefully) seeing their wishes come true!

Ricoh are doing exactly what they need to do to keep my custom. High-specification equipment at a price I am (reluctantly!) willing to pay. Keep it coming, Ricoh! It isn't what everyone wants, but some of us want it!
I quote you just so people can read this one more time
05-02-2015, 07:08 AM   #663
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I'll add to the previous, and break it down some.
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
my only problems with the price is the fact that pentax has a small market share and shrinking.
Growing - especially in their major market, Japan.
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
third party manufacturers are no longer bringing out new lenses in the K mount. so instead of trying to gain market share i feel they are gouging legacy users.
The financial problem for Sigma is the mechanical aperture coupler, which requires a completely new mount reverse engineering job for each lens. More Pentax market share won't change that
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
i have no problem spending money if i feel that i am receiving value for my money. i just don't feel like the value is there in this case. there is no way these lenses should cost nearly three times as much as the sigma versions.
It would help if you would write, 'IMHO' before such assertions because you cannot have yet quantified value without lenses in-hand to test. So far it appears the sizes, MTF ratings, AF and price are in the same range as the lenses they intend to compete against
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
pentax is making excellent products and the camera bodies are very competitively priced but then they gouge us with the glass. this is not the way to recover market share. my dad was an old gun trader and he would rather make a little at a time on a lot of stuff that make a lot on a little bit of stuff. the first way gains you customers the second way sends them elsewhere.
We've been over the high-volume, low margin versus lower volume higher margin business model many times. Canon and Nikon presently have excess unused capacity dragging down their operating profit now that industry volume has declined significantly. Ricoh doesn't want Box Store buyers - they can't make enough product with their present capacity to supply that market.
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
i if pentax is going to survive as a brand or even if the mount is going to survive they have to attract new shooters. and right or wrong price drives a lot if not most decisions.
Agreed.
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
i love my K3 but they need to adjust prices of the glass to attract the new shooters.
Ricoh seems to believe new shooters will buy these lenses - they're just a different group of shooters than you.
QuoteOriginally posted by nitehntr Quote
my 2 cents for what its worth.
These arguments have been refuted many times over the last two years, Ricoh has an alternative strategy than do Canon, Nikon and Sony. It is their strategy. Of course we hope it works - but Ricoh seems to believe it will. I don't think they're misguided - in fact I believe they're every bit as informed about their target buyers as are Canon, Nikon and Sony.

When we say Ricoh wants to be an alternative to CaniKony, not just another brand that does all the same things, that might also mean they've decided no longer to serve only the market that wants bargain pricing on great lenses, but premium buyers as well. If you are in a group that refutes this strategy it could be they're abandoning many of their legacy customers, not gouging them.

Last edited by monochrome; 05-02-2015 at 10:00 AM.
05-02-2015, 07:21 AM   #664
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I WANT Pentax to be a high-end alternative system to Nikon, even if that means their lenses are similarly priced. I'm currently using Nikon for full-frame, and would happily use just K mount when the full-frame comes out, if it is a match for the D810. I appreciate that price is a hurdle for many people, but I'm sure Pentax will continue to support the consumer market. I never worry about the price of lenses I can't afford - and there are a lot of those around!

05-02-2015, 07:32 AM   #665
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If you want an inexpensive Sigma lens, go buy one. Use it. I had one. It was nice within it's limits. To remove the limits cost lots of money. A stop larger aperture requires larger front elements. A larger front element causes problems, requiring higher quality glass further in, the special glass is expensive, but it gives better results. Costs increase exponentially; every seemingly small improvement increases the costs substantially.

As I said upstream, if you don't want to pay the cost, Pentax isn't making it for you.

A very nice, sharp 450mm lens, f5.6 at this price is great value. They are making it because there is a market, people willing to spend that money. That is what it costs to get that performance.

I had one of those inexpensive Sigma long zooms. I sold it.

How much was the 250-600 f5.6 when it was new?

---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 07:36 AM ----------

Pentax-D FA 150-450 mm F4,5-5,6ED DC AW • Pentaxians

More photo samples.

---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 07:45 AM ----------

I must say I'm impressed. These are 'open the box, mount it on a body and take shots of whatever moves' type. Pretty fair. The bokeh is a bit choppy, not bad, not as bad as the DA*300 in similar situation. Most are stopped down a bit. The in flight shots are quite nice, and a testament to the skill of the photographer.
05-02-2015, 08:56 AM   #666
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Those who know what they are doing can bring out the best of the lens. Those who don't... well... blame the lens.
05-02-2015, 09:10 AM   #667
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Nitehntr : you say at least three wrong things :
- "three times Sigma "equivalents" price" : 2 times wrong (the 3 factor + this is rather Canon and Nikon where some equivalence is to be found)
- Pentax marketshare shrinking : it has been aknowledged it is no more the case
- no more support in K mount for third party lenses : only true for Tamron (but they continue to produce à few K-mount versions from their current catalog) and Zeiss (since 2011); it all depends on each model for Sigma, it is systematic for the corean optician Samyang

Last edited by Zygonyx; 05-02-2015 at 09:15 AM.
05-02-2015, 09:37 AM   #668
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QuoteOriginally posted by JinDesu Quote
Those who know what they are doing can bring out the best of the lens. Those who don't... well... blame the lens.
Yes. I would like to see what he produces in a few months. A friend bought the Canon 100-400, his first shots were disappointing, but after a month and a half he was able to produce outstanding results.

05-02-2015, 01:38 PM   #669
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2. der AF passt schon ganz gut ( das Problem ist dahinter)

Anyone care to translate? Google returns the section in brackets as "the problem is behind it".

This is from the Pentaxians german site linked above.
05-02-2015, 02:42 PM   #670
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
2. der AF passt schon ganz gut ( das Problem ist dahinter)

Anyone care to translate? Google returns the section in brackets as "the problem is behind it".

This is from the Pentaxians german site linked above.
This means "the AF works quite well, the problem is sitting behind the camera (the photographer)".
05-02-2015, 02:43 PM   #671
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QuoteQuote:
Pentax-D FA 150-450 mm F4,5-5,6ED DC AW • Pentaxians

More photo samples.

Read more at: https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/16-pentax-news-rumors/287834-hd-pentax-d-...#ixzz3Z1I9rhO6
Yay, some really nice shots there !!
And it seems to be working nicely with the TC too...
05-02-2015, 02:47 PM   #672
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QuoteOriginally posted by zokes83 Quote
This means "the AF works quite well, the problem is sitting behind the camera (the photographer)".
Thanks.
05-02-2015, 02:50 PM   #673
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote

[/COLOR]Pentax-D FA 150-450 mm F4,5-5,6ED DC AW • Pentaxians

More photo samples.[COLOR="Silver"]

---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 07:45 AM ----------
The sample pics at the pentaxians.de Lens Club are very promising! Ricoh really seems to deliver and meet customary high expectations!
05-02-2015, 03:00 PM   #674
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I didn't really make it out of the house today. I put some more test shots from yesterday (and a few from around the house from today) in a Flickr album. It feels a bit weird to have them up there, because they're not the type of shots meant to show to anyone; they're more of the type "I wonder if it can focus on that little barn swallow way over there". Guess what... it can (middle of the frame):




Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/oranggoreng/sets/72157651908090350/
Dropbox link to the full-sized jpgs (I could do RAWs but that would take forever with my home connection); in fact even this link won't be active for the next hour or so: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4m08sew9mkblt43/dfa150450testshots.zip?dl=0
05-02-2015, 03:06 PM   #675
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QuoteOriginally posted by OJGoreng Quote
My impression so far is that when the subject is at fairly close range, the DA* + converter does a very good job, especially when stopped down a bit (I routinely use f/8 for that combo). But as soon as the subject is further away (and with birds, this is more often the case than not unless you work exclusively from a hide) the IQ rapidly goes down, for some reason. I don't understand how that works from a theoretical point of view, but it is one reason why for distant subjects I actually prefer the 1.7x AFA over the 1.4 HD converter; I get more acceptable shots that way (the other reasons being the focus limiter imposed by the AFA - less hunting, and the much faster focussing speed of the AFA's screwdrive over the SDM). Maybe it's as simple as the slightly longer focal length being enough for the camera to focus significantly more accurately. Less chance of birds flying between focus sensor points, or something.
That would also be similar when I use the DA*300/4 with the AFA 1.7X.
As a matter of fact, I have been getting more "keepers" with this "old" TC vs. the HD 1.4X, especially with distant "on the move" wildlife (birds). But that is also not consistent.
So, in the end, I seriously think that the 150-450 would be the lens of choice for me, hoping to get good results at the long end without having to use any TC's..

Thanks for the reply!

---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 06:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 07:36 AM ---------- Pentax-D FA 150-450 mm F4,5-5,6ED DC AW • Pentaxians
More photo samples. ---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 07:45 AM ---------- I must say I'm impressed. These are 'open the box, mount it on a body and take shots of whatever moves' type. Pretty fair. The bokeh is a bit choppy, not bad, not as bad as the DA*300 in similar situation. Most are stopped down a bit. The in flight shots are quite nice, and a testament to the skill of the photographer.
Totally agreed here.

The DA*300/4 does indeed show a very "busy" background at times.
Seems like the 150-450 lens is not creating this as much.

---------- Post added 05-02-15 at 06:11 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by OJGoreng Quote
I didn't really make it out of the house today. I put some more test shots from yesterday (and a few from around the house from today) in a Flickr album. It feels a bit weird to have them up there, because they're not the type of shots meant to show to anyone; they're more of the type "I wonder if it can focus on that little barn swallow way over there". Guess what... it can (middle of the frame):




Album: https://www.flickr.com/photos/oranggoreng/sets/72157651908090350/
Dropbox link to the full-sized jpgs (I could do RAWs but that would take forever with my home connection); in fact even this link won't be active for the next hour or so: https://www.dropbox.com/s/4m08sew9mkblt43/dfa150450testshots.zip?dl=0
That was quite a successfully rendered "over reaching" shot" !!
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