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02-19-2015, 09:07 PM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
camera makers seem rather conservative. I wonder how phone makers deal with it though... they are MUCH faster to adopt the latest technologies.

Really different customer mindsets, Kadajawi.


Mobile owners get a new phone every two years when their contract comes up - a recurring, already paid for, built-in upgrade cycle.


On this forum, there are people who still use *ists!

02-19-2015, 09:29 PM   #767
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I don't know. Pentax may be able to survive sticking to solid, proven designs and gradual change, or they may go the way of car makers like Hudson or Packard - they made excellent cars, but they couldn't afford to change styling every year just to keep up with the latest fashion, and they couldn't beat the "big three" on price.

As others have said, phones are nearly disposable items, with the expectation that there will be a "new and improved" model every year/month/week/minute. There are always going to be those who want the latest and greatest phone or camera, but an awful lot of Pentaxians seem to be fairly resistant to change themselves. (I think my phone is coal-powered.) The question is whether that group is large enough to continue to be a profitable niche.
02-19-2015, 09:32 PM   #768
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QuoteOriginally posted by clackers Quote
Really different customer mindsets, Kadajawi.


Mobile owners get a new phone every two years when their contract comes up - a recurring, already paid for, built-in upgrade cycle.


On this forum, there are people who still use *ists!
True, but OLED screens are less likely to get damaged (they are bendable for example), the only thing that hurts them is too much usage/burn in of on screen elements that are constantly being displayed. But how long is such a camera screen on overall? Especially on a DSLR? Yes, the device is used over a longer period of time, but a phone screen can be on several hours a day, every day. I doubt the same can be said of a DSLR. Also, for a device that will be used over a long period of time, isn't it better to have the latest and greatest? You'll be stuck with it for a long time, it better be good. (Reminds me for example of the new (European) Ford Mondeo/Fusion. The touchscreen interface is incredibly laggy. Push a button, and a second or two later something happens. That seems unacceptable to me. That is frustrating, and you have to live with that for 10-15 years?! I'm much more willing to accept sub-par performance/quality on something I'm only going to use for a year or two, rather than 5, 10, 15 years).

Ps: The last time I got a phone with a contract was... I think 11 or 12 years ago now. I buy my phones off contract, and sometimes second hand.

Last edited by kadajawi; 02-19-2015 at 09:42 PM.
02-19-2015, 09:41 PM   #769
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With respect to OLED screens, I'm perfectly happy with the screen on my K-3, but I'm always open to improvements. However, I don't have an OLED monitor to PP or view my photographs on. Would there be much of a mismatch between what I see on the rear OLED screen of a camera and an LCD/LED monitor?

02-19-2015, 09:44 PM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by Cynog Ap Brychan Quote
With respect to OLED screens, I'm perfectly happy with the screen on my K-3, but I'm always open to improvements. However, I don't have an OLED monitor to PP or view my photographs on. Would there be much of a mismatch between what I see on the rear OLED screen of a camera and an LCD/LED monitor?
OLED screens are different, for sure. Blacks are deeper, colors can be more saturated. As for the rest it depends on the calibration, I suppose? I don't like the way Samsung sets up and calibrates their screens, but I'm sure Pentax could do a better job, create something that comes close to a calibrated monitor.

I have quite a mismatch between any of my displays, be it laptop, good 24" monitor (S-PVA), TV, phone with OLED screen, phone with LCD screen... a colorimeter would be a good thing to have. The OLED screen only stands out because of a pretty strong green tinge it has, but I think that can be fixed.

Btw., what _I_ want is something that is so good that I am happy to use it for a long time. For example my phone... though I bought it last year, it was launched in 2013. It is still one of the fastest devices on the market... not _the_ fastest, but you'll hardly feel the difference to a current flagship device, it reacts instantly to any button press. The screen is still a good screen. The camera is still a decent one. Most phones launched today would still feel like a downgrade. That's the ideal situation IMHO, I don't feel any need to get a new phone. That is why I think Pentax should use the best possible display they can find. The best possible CPU. etc. So that the usage experience even in 5 years time is a very pleasant one, one that doesn't make you feel "I wish I had that new camera...".
02-19-2015, 09:44 PM   #771
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
but an awful lot of Pentaxians seem to be fairly resistant to change themselves.
Amen. Look at all the reaction to the K-01 and K-S1 or even just putting "Ricoh" on the back of the K-3.
02-19-2015, 10:54 PM   #772
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
What I wonder is why they picked such a screen.

Just look at these photos of the S5 OLED screen.
https://hytparts.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/samsung-galaxy-s5-lcd-teardown-1.jpg
https://d3nevzfk7ii3be.cloudfront.net/igi/OmB2r3bgXHGJChNY

And another OLED screen:
http://mewsview.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/samsung-flexible-oled-android...ne-display.jpg

These, mounted to a stiff metal plate and with a pane of gorilla glass on top (edge to edge), would make for a pretty nice screen IMHO... and one that is very thin. Some water sealing around the edges and done. It would look sexy, be thin and won't need a big border (the clear K-S2 IMHO shows that the LCD screen takes plenty of space).

As for image quality... yes, those Samsung displays are very saturated, but just because they _can_ be very saturated it doesn't mean they have to be all the time. The advantage is also a much bigger range of brightnesses (great for shooting at night), and, perhaps, bigger dynamic range. These displays are also ridiculously sharp. I can see the dots on my K-5 screen, I can't on say the Galaxy S5 screen).

So... any idea why they went for a conventional LCD screen, again? Samsung uses OLED screens on their cameras (though the main screen doesn't have a higher resolution than say the K-3...), but apart from them...
Because that is what they can get. You have to remember, phones are manufactured by the millions every quarter. That's VOLUME. Camera manufacturers are perhaps a couple percent of that volume at best. To the screen manufacturers that's peanuts and they are just not interested.

I see this first-hand. I work for a medical imaging manufacturer and nearly all of our devices have some kind of LCD to display information or provide a touchscreen graphical interface. We would love to have access to the nice, high-res OLED and LCD screens used in mobile devices, but the simple fact is even with thousands of shipped devices per year, we can only get access to older technology screens. We can't compete with the mobile device manufacturers for volume so the screen manufacturers are just not interested. Admittedly our volume is far smaller than any camera manufacturer.
02-20-2015, 12:07 AM   #773
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
The clear K-S2 probably has issues with light leaks, but I still want one!

Thank you for this picture.
But i have to say "too bad" we don't see the entire cristal AF201 flash !

02-20-2015, 04:46 AM   #774
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Interesting. Seems like a competitor to canon sl1, but slightly bigger and heavier. I don't care much about pixels (18 or 20, who cares?) or video, but flip screen is attractive. That's something I miss on sl1. However, touch screen is convenient. I would love to compare both cameras in my hands (Pentax, please! Make it available in stores!). K-S2 weight with smaller size may be not so attractive for carrying the camera all day in regular bag without noticing the weight much with the lightweight lens. I like sl1 for the "girl" weight.
02-20-2015, 05:44 AM   #775
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QuoteOriginally posted by cbope Quote
Because that is what they can get. You have to remember, phones are manufactured by the millions every quarter. That's VOLUME. Camera manufacturers are perhaps a couple percent of that volume at best. To the screen manufacturers that's peanuts and they are just not interested.

I see this first-hand. I work for a medical imaging manufacturer and nearly all of our devices have some kind of LCD to display information or provide a touchscreen graphical interface. We would love to have access to the nice, high-res OLED and LCD screens used in mobile devices, but the simple fact is even with thousands of shipped devices per year, we can only get access to older technology screens. We can't compete with the mobile device manufacturers for volume so the screen manufacturers are just not interested. Admittedly our volume is far smaller than any camera manufacturer.
Fair enough. I do see plenty of small Chinese phone makers who also have access to pretty nice screens, even though they don't produce as many devices... but perhaps they just get them off the shelf, the parts aren't custom made for them. And camera displays have a very different shape and size...
02-20-2015, 06:51 AM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
Thank you for this picture.
But i have to say "too bad" we don't see the entire cristal AF201 flash !
Kurosawa-san has several shots of it, too - you just have to dig around in the set:

02-20-2015, 07:17 AM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by THoog Quote
Kurosawa-san has several shots of it, too - you just have to dig around in the set:

All those see-through models suggest that there is no downside to revealing proprietary details about your construction methods. That surprises me, since reverse-engineering can be done using photographs if they are detailed enough. Pentax/Ricoh apparently isn't worried about their relatively advanced weather sealing methods being on display. I suppose the patents must be iron-clad.
02-20-2015, 07:57 AM   #778
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Or the competitors could simply buy a sample of the flash and dissect it in the privacy of their own lab. These products are close enough to market that the few days/weeks advantage gotten by looking at fuzzy photos instead of the real thing to pick out minor details would have a trivial effect on the overall reverse engineering effort. Even Ricoh's "advanced" weather sealing can be pretty summed up in two words: "more gaskets," and the mating surfaces where such gaskets are placed are one of the least visible aspects in these photos.

QuoteOriginally posted by Marktax Quote
All those see-through models suggest that there is no downside to revealing proprietary details about your construction methods. That surprises me, since reverse-engineering can be done using photographs if they are detailed enough. Pentax/Ricoh apparently isn't worried about their relatively advanced weather sealing methods being on display. I suppose the patents must be iron-clad.
02-20-2015, 08:05 AM   #779
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I do see plenty of small Chinese phone makers who also have access to pretty nice screens, even though they don't produce as many devices... but perhaps they just get them off the shelf, the parts aren't custom made for them.
They're probably buying the rejects - screens with too many dead pixels or other imperfections for the majors to accept. Another way to keep costs down.
02-20-2015, 09:38 AM   #780
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QuoteOriginally posted by VE2CJW Quote
One thing I find lacking is the fact that Pentax has not included a wired remote control socket on the KS2, I have that on the K30 and use it a lot. What a shame. By the way, has anyone seen the remote control application "Image Sync" somewhere, I'd like to look at it.
Yes, it is a surprising lack. The cheapest previous models had the possibility to connect an external wired remote control. Maybe it is a mistake in the specifications.
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