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02-08-2015, 03:58 PM   #76
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Opinion, as always, are different. Counting the ''likes'' received for the idea of a 12Mp sensor, I can thing that's almost fifty-fifty.

About using JPEG instead of RAW, IMO, that doesn't count at all. It's an image. Period.

From my brief experience with a Canon D1X and a Canon 400/2.8 with OS, I thing that a OS shift system can be done, but with completely new algorithm, with in lens computing chip, and a lot of testing. And in this way, the image shift will be able to be applied by any manufacturer, including Pentax for his 645 series. But things are very complicated, because every lens (algorithm) must be calibrated for two different kind of sensor, FF and APS-C, with the single exception of Pentax 645 lenses. Some questions still remains. Can such a powerful CPU be placed and used in a lens? It is practical, and economical?

My opinion is no. Also I don't think that we will see a software upgrade which will make ''old'' cameras, like K-5, K-5 IIs (which I have), or even K-3, upgraded to this sensor shift systems. And not only because every manufacturer wants to sell new products, a normal desire from almost any point of view, but because, it could be difficult to translate coordinates given by today mechanism in SR, supraimpose them over some new coordinates, given by the need to move the sensor only one pixel, or even half, and make a coherent movement of the sensor. Even if we cut the SR correction function, and we let only the sensor shift, did we know if the electromagnetic system involved is precised enough to move the sensor exactly in the ''old'' cameras?

I said that to upgrade old cameras is not in anybody interest. Yes, for today, maybe I will like to see that Pentax is giving me a new and extremely powerful tool for free. But if this come with a major loose for Pentax, which can bring the firm in the situation to bankrupt, and never make new and advanced products, I'd better pass. It's my own interest, yes, a longer term interest, to keep this firm alive.


Last edited by JimmyDranox; 02-08-2015 at 04:04 PM.
02-08-2015, 04:10 PM   #77
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimmyDranox Quote
I said that to upgrade old cameras is not in anybody interest. Yes, for today, maybe I will like to see that Pentax is giving me a new and extremely powerful tool for free. But if this come with a major loose for Pentax, which can bring the firm in the situation to bankrupt, and never make new and advanced products, I'd better pass. It's my own interest, yes, a longer term interest, to keep this firm alive.
That's true for all people with more than a passing interest in Pentax, people who want better products, modern products.
02-08-2015, 04:29 PM   #78
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When I spread all the image data to each pixel it's called "really blurry" - now it's a "hi-tech super-resolution image"
No don't bother replying, I do sorta know the difference..
02-08-2015, 04:57 PM   #79
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
That's true for all people with more than a passing interest in Pentax, people who want better products, modern products.
I forgot to say they I don't have any particular interest in Pentax, other than my own investment in lenses and cameras. And my overall interest in more choices for future products.

On a longer term, a combination between OS and IS, first to make image stability, and the second to give me more resolution, would be a dream. An expensive dream, for some time, but not impossible to achieve.

02-08-2015, 05:49 PM   #80
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QuoteOriginally posted by jimr-pdx Quote
When I spread all the image data to each pixel it's called "really blurry" - now it's a "hi-tech super-resolution image"
No don't bother replying, I do sorta know the difference..
I like the idea of Pentax having an abstract mode, in which the shutter is set for 1/2 second exposure and then the user encouraged to swing the camera around. I'm surprised no one has come up with it yet. Jackson Pollock mode, perhaps.
02-08-2015, 07:18 PM   #81
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I would be perfectly fine if the camera simply took more photos and saved them separately. The rest can be done on the computer.

---------- Post added 08-02-15 at 21:11 ----------


Olympus also has a stabilized videos. They even have a mode that combines mechanical with digital SR.
Pentax would be wise to include a free firmware upgrade to enable this feature -- if only to prevent people from "jumping ship". It would also demonstrate that they are thinking about their customers first. And finally, it might even get a few from other manufacturers to "jump ship" to Pentax.

Michael
02-08-2015, 07:28 PM   #82
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I really do not think that a "super-resolution" capability on an ASP-C or FF sensor will endanger the 645D/Z market. There is a very substantial degree of freedom separating the native resolution of the 645D/Z and the ASP-C/FF, and that is the element of time. The "super-resolution" mode will take time to capture each of the individual images - it will not be instantaneous. Olympus used an electronic shutter to reduce this (no mechanical shutter movement to consume time), but in the Camera Store video (Olympus vs the 645Z), you can see movement in the exhaust of the buildings - the clouds move ever so slightly. The river in an image will move. It is going to be very similar to bracketing - this super-resolution functionality.

The 645 for that reason alone, will always be superior. Yes the ASP-C/FF will catch-up in terms of the shear amount of resolution, but the difference will be the clarity in the image resolution across the entire frame. The difference will be in the quality of the pixels. I do think that the ASP-C/FF will do an extremely good job in a wide variety of situations - but not in all situations. I took some bracketed shots of a ship tied up at a pier (sunset/sunrise), and just between the bracketed shots - it moved, tide and wind. It was like looking at a stop action movie. It didn't move a lot, but just enough to be noticeable. What was funny was the city lights in the background was absolutely rock solid. So, for landscapes, cityscapes, architecture, etc. it will be very nice - when applied appropriately. When it works - it will work well. When it doesn't, your heart will sink. I'll go out on a limb and predict, it will have on the order of nearly 90-95% of the IQ of a 645D/Z. That alone will be wonderful.

The other aspect is the sensor family it is used with. The less noise and cleaner the IQ, the better - especially the sensors without the AA filter. For that reason alone, I would think that the 16MP will be very suitable for this, and even given the wonderful results of the K3, I am thinking that the clean dynamic range and low noise, especially at ISO 80 (for images with out any movement in the frame), will have the best results.

Also, Olympus processed the individual frames within the camera. This is probably OK, but if the external post processing had the individual RAW frames, the results would be much better. I am also expecting that the meta data within the individual frames will be tagged in the EXIF. Pentax already has the super RAW image for backeting - all 4 images packed into a single file (where the Pentax processing utility unpacks them for you). I would expect that this would also be used here.

Super resolution is but one aspect. Depending on the repositioning (shift) pattern used, the RGB pixels can also be then stacked, producing a Foveon like sensor pattern with each individual pixel having specific R, G and B values. This again will force the post processing utilities to provide some additional post processing capabilities. This would be the area that would challenge the 645 in terms of IQ results. This might be the difference between the low ISO images of the 645D (CCD sensor) with the more saturated colors - that a "super-resolution" ASP-C/FF shifted sensor output could perhaps really challenge the 645. I still think that the 645 results will hold their own - especially across all shooting environments.

I also hope that they update the firmware for the K5IIs for this. I will be disappointed if they don't.

02-08-2015, 07:40 PM   #83
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
I really do not think that a "super-resolution" capability on an ASP-C or FF sensor will endanger the 645D/Z market. There is a very substantial degree of freedom separating the native resolution of the 645D/Z and the ASP-C/FF, and that is the element of time. The "super-resolution" mode will take time to capture each of the individual images - it will not be instantaneous. Olympus used an electronic shutter to reduce this (no mechanical shutter movement to consume time), but in the Camera Store video (Olympus vs the 645Z), you can see movement in the exhaust of the buildings - the clouds move ever so slightly. The river in an image will move. It is going to be very similar to bracketing - this super-resolution functionality.

The 645 for that reason alone, will always be superior. Yes the ASP-C/FF will catch-up in terms of the shear amount of resolution, but the difference will be the clarity in the image resolution across the entire frame. The difference will be in the quality of the pixels. I do think that the ASP-C/FF will do an extremely good job in a wide variety of situations - but not in all situations. I took some bracketed shots of a ship tied up at a pier (sunset/sunrise), and just between the bracketed shots - it moved, tide and wind. It was like looking at a stop action movie. It didn't move a lot, but just enough to be noticeable. What was funny was the city lights in the background was absolutely rock solid. So, for landscapes, cityscapes, architecture, etc. it will be very nice - when applied appropriately. When it works - it will work well. When it doesn't, your heart will sink. I'll go out on a limb and predict, it will have on the order of nearly 90-95% of the IQ of a 645D/Z. That alone will be wonderful.

The other aspect is the sensor family it is used with. The less noise and cleaner the IQ, the better - especially the sensors without the AA filter. For that reason alone, I would think that the 16MP will be very suitable for this, and even given the wonderful results of the K3, I am thinking that the clean dynamic range and low noise, especially at ISO 80 (for images with out any movement in the frame), will have the best results.

Also, Olympus processed the individual frames within the camera. This is probably OK, but if the external post processing had the individual RAW frames, the results would be much better. I am also expecting that the meta data within the individual frames will be tagged in the EXIF. Pentax already has the super RAW image for backeting - all 4 images packed into a single file (where the Pentax processing utility unpacks them for you). I would expect that this would also be used here.

Super resolution is but one aspect. Depending on the repositioning (shift) pattern used, the RGB pixels can also be then stacked, producing a Foveon like sensor pattern with each individual pixel having specific R, G and B values. This again will force the post processing utilities to provide some additional post processing capabilities. This would be the area that would challenge the 645 in terms of IQ results. This might be the difference between the low ISO images of the 645D (CCD sensor) with the more saturated colors - that a "super-resolution" ASP-C/FF shifted sensor output could perhaps really challenge the 645. I still think that the 645 results will hold their own - especially across all shooting environments.

I also hope that they update the firmware for the K5IIs for this. I will be disappointed if they don't.

Pentax has no major market segment generating vast amounts of revenue that they dare not threaten with some other produce. Someone buying an aps-c or even FF with this technology is not a 645z buyer.

In fact, if they release a high MP full frame, they will get more total sales even if an odd 645z buyer decides to purchase the full frame.

02-08-2015, 07:45 PM   #84
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Macro could be fun with this feature, provided ones focal subject is stationary.
02-08-2015, 07:54 PM   #85
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QuoteOriginally posted by interested_observer Quote
... The "super-resolution" mode will take time to capture each of the individual images - it will not be instantaneous...
Yes, tall grass in a strong breeze will be quite surreal when everything else is solid and highly resolved!
02-08-2015, 08:24 PM - 1 Like   #86
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This is very cool tech! So now SR has two meanings (super-resolution).
02-08-2015, 09:17 PM   #87
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So I assume the situation would be very specific as it would have to be very still landscapes on a tripod, no moving trees in the wind or birds flying or clouds moving or it would blur those into the final image.
02-08-2015, 10:00 PM   #88
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QuoteOriginally posted by Dr_who Quote
So I assume the situation would be very specific as it would have to be very still landscapes on a tripod, no moving trees in the wind or birds flying or clouds moving or it would blur those into the final image.
Any static scene really.. could be architecture, landscapes, macro, product shots.. actually product shots could be the ideal situation. controlled environment (no wind, flash system) would make it far easier.

That said, nothing is stopping us from getting a nodal slider, setting it on a tripod and just snapping the photos by hand and stitching them. I do that all the time.. it just takes more time/hassle. But the benefit of doing this manually is that one can capture the frames that are static first and wait for the dynamic parts. Similar to taking dynamic Brenizer effect photographs.

Actually, that makes me now wonder.. does this auto focus each frame in the set? If not, it could probably be used for Brenizer style shots too. At least in taking the background. Then could take the foreground subject in a second shot and combine just two images.
02-08-2015, 10:33 PM   #89
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QuoteOriginally posted by ruggiex Quote
Please be available through FW update on K3. I imagine any camera body capable of AA simulation should have enough fine control to support this.
Yes and no. It also needs enough processing speed to catch and combine (interpolate) both (or 4) images that will composite the final super high res picture.

With sinulated AA filter through a vibrating sensor, only one image is captured with a micoscopic motion blur caused by vibrating sensor.
02-08-2015, 11:34 PM   #90
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QuoteOriginally posted by rburgoss Quote
Yes and no. It also needs enough processing speed to catch and combine (interpolate) both (or 4) images that will composite the final super high res picture.

With sinulated AA filter through a vibrating sensor, only one image is captured with a micoscopic motion blur caused by vibrating sensor.
There's enough buffer to capture all images and then process it afterwards, it doesn't need to be on the fly.
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