Super resolution by pixel shifting in future Pentax cameras

BrianR · 02-09-2015, 10:08 AM

Originally posted by Kenn100D

Can it be done on a MF?

In general, yes. Hassleblad's had a version for a few years outputting up to 200mp images. Recent models: H5D CMOS Multi-Shot. For the current pentax models, no as they don't have a means to move the sensor around. Future Pentax MF... time will tell if they implement something.

Racerdew · 02-09-2015, 10:17 AM

As far as the business goes, I would guess Ricoh would not make this a retrofit update. If you have a new technology like this you want to get increase your leverage for profits. I think they would only offer this on new cameras so they would increase sales of new merchandise. That doesn't favor us or my K5 IIs, but it makes business since to drive sales. Look what Apple does with their phones.

Mistral75 · 02-09-2015, 10:29 AM

Originally posted by Kenn100D

Can it be done on a MF?

If you mean downsampling to obtain a higher light sensitivity, yes it can be done on a medium format camera. See for instance the 'Sensor+' feature of the P+ series from Phase One:

"Sensor+ for high ISO captures

With the P 65+ and the P 40+ you can capture your images with the full resolution, e.g. 60 megapixel, or you can use the Sensor+ technology and go for a faster workflow, capturing images with a quarter of the resolution, e.g. 15 megapixel and gain 4 times higher ISO speeds, up to ISO 3200.

Capturing with Sensor+ is especially well suited for shooting in low light conditions. With Sensor+ there are no crop or lens factors; you get the maximum wide angle performance with your lenses."

P+ series digital backs | Features

kadajawi · 02-09-2015, 11:03 AM

Originally posted by Racerdew

As far as the business goes, I would guess Ricoh would not make this a retrofit update. If you have a new technology like this you want to get increase your leverage for profits. I think they would only offer this on new cameras so they would increase sales of new merchandise. That doesn't favor us or my K5 IIs, but it makes business since to drive sales. Look what Apple does with their phones.

What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc.

Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing...

**fewayne** · 02-09-2015, 11:06 AM - **2 Likes**

Mmm, Ricoh might try to maximize profits by eschewing firmware-based feature upgrades for legacy cameras. But that's short-term thinking. Another route is to build a fanatic customer base by ensuring that existing customers don't get screwed over in favor of new business. E.g., Google and the Data Liberation Front). Google makes no money ensuring that I can migrate my data away from them...but they keep me as a customer partly based on that. Likewise Ricoh makes no money off 1970 Pentax glass off eBay, but I'm a Pentaxian in large part because of that commitment. That's two DSLR bodies and a DA lens and counting for them.

Not trying to say they're selfless altruists, just that there's more than one way to make money. In the U.S. at least, a cult following is about the best they can hope for, so they might as well cultivate scary-eyed adherents who'll back you into a corner in a bar and hold forth at length about the miracles of Pentax cameras.

(Pro tip: This gets you very few dates.)

D1N0 · 02-09-2015, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by kadajawi

What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc.

Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing...

Pentax also added support for de 1.4 TC for the K-5. I doubt that this function can be achieved by firmware though. It needs more precise movement. Different from SR. Maybe the K-3 could do it. But before that. I doubt it.

kadajawi · 02-09-2015, 11:08 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Then why didn't Sony just use downsampling on the 36mp A7r instead of marketing a seperate 12mp camera? I was told it was the bigger sensels that produce the superior light sensitivity. There is no trick to reproduce it with smaller sensel sensors.

If only it were true. Then we could have cameras that use the full resolution in bright daylight, and just downsample to user specific settings to reach the desired light sensitivity in low light situations.

It is not that clear cut. The A7S was made with video in mind. 12 MP is basically 4K if you crop away the top and bottom. It's ideal for 4K video.

There are gaps between the pixels in a normal sensor. That is why with a high res sensor more space is wasted due to these gaps. That is also the reason why the 28 MP BSI Samsung sensor has (IIRC) the same size per pixel as their 20 MP sensor. BSI minimizes the space wasted between the pixels.

Pentax added support for hardware they want to sell you. Of course they do that. They want you to buy the TC. But updates to actually improve the camera, to add functionality... that is rare. Other brands do it, Pentax doesn't (or rarely).

**fewayne** · 02-09-2015, 11:10 AM - **1 Like**

Heh. "Cultivate". I crack myself up sometimes.

BrianR · 02-09-2015, 11:26 AM

Originally posted by fewayne

Not trying to say they're selfless altruists, just that there's more than one way to make money. In the U.S. at least, a cult following is about the best they can hope for, so they might as well cultivate scary-eyed adherents who'll back you into a corner in a bar and hold forth at length about the miracles of Pentax cameras.

(Pro tip: This gets you very few dates.)

"Few" sounds better then "zero"...how many restraining orders does this method yield?

Gimbal · 02-09-2015, 11:39 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

Then why didn't Sony just use downsampling on the 36mp A7r instead of marketing a seperate 12mp camera? I was told it was the bigger sensels that produce the superior light sensitivity. There is no trick to reproduce it with smaller sensel sensors.

If only it were true. Then we could have cameras that use the full resolution in bright daylight, and just downsample to user specific settings to reach the desired light sensitivity in low light situations.

It isn't that superior when it comes to noise in still pictures compared to a down sampled 36mp version, it's less then 0,5 iso step according to dxo mark. Video is another thing as the 36mp camera doesn't down sample to video size but instead skips pixels, and thus lose information as it doesn't use the entire sensor area.

**fewayne** · 02-09-2015, 11:56 AM

Originally posted by BrianR

"Few" sounds better then "zero"...how many restraining orders does this method yield?

Upon the advice of counsel, I decline to reply.

But eventually, she did marry me, so there's that.

falconeye · 02-09-2015, 12:06 PM

Superresolution is old tech.

Everybody can play with it, e.g., try
-> PhotoAcute Studio Example :: Processing the images taken using tripod, with trees swinging in snowstorm, with no PhotoAcute Studio profile for the given camera/lens.

However, I wouldn't expect that much resolution increase from the superresolution approach. Not with Bayer filter sensors (monochrome sensors could perform a bit better).

And there is no way the resolution would increase 4x, not even 2x. I'll give it an 1.5x improvement under ideal conditions, talking from experience. Certainly no killer feature.

mamethot · 02-09-2015, 12:58 PM

Originally posted by kadajawi

What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc.

Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing...

Not exactly my experience with my ipad 1st generation. After resetting to factory defaults, most of the apps I had are no longer available or new versions does not install on this hardware.

Might be that I don't know how to find and install older versions of apps, but I am basically in possession of a 500$ paper weight...

6BQ5 · 02-09-2015, 01:00 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by kadajawi

What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc.

Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing...

Ahh, but remember what Apple did with their Maps application? Even though the application could run on the older iPhone 4 Apple wanted people to upgrade so they locked the app out from that device. People cited Google Maps as the baseline but that didn't sway Apple.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

normhead · 02-09-2015, 01:12 PM

Originally posted by 6BQ5

Ahh, but remember what Apple did with their Maps application? Even though the application could run on the older iPhone 4 Apple wanted people to upgrade so they locked the app out from that device. People cited Google Maps as the baseline but that didn't sway Apple.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Apple rather arbitrarily decides when you hardware is too old. I'm using an iPhone three, and I'm sure I'm getting close, but so far, everything runs great.

My guess is Apple will release any updates to Aperture needed for OS upgrades for a while, they just won't spend money on new features.

But. my old Core 2 duo 7 years ole still runs on10.6. It still does way more than I bought it to do.... you may not be able to do whatever new thing they think is great. But, with the last upgrades, I didn't notice a single improvement... though they claim to have made 200 of them.

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02-09-2015, 10:08 AM	#106
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by Kenn100D Can it be done on a MF? In general, yes. Hassleblad's had a version for a few years outputting up to 200mp images. Recent models: H5D CMOS Multi-Shot. For the current pentax models, no as they don't have a means to move the sensor around. Future Pentax MF... time will tell if they implement something.

02-09-2015, 10:17 AM	#107
Racerdew Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2011 Location: Thousand Oaks, CA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 285	As far as the business goes, I would guess Ricoh would not make this a retrofit update. If you have a new technology like this you want to get increase your leverage for profits. I think they would only offer this on new cameras so they would increase sales of new merchandise. That doesn't favor us or my K5 IIs, but it makes business since to drive sales. Look what Apple does with their phones.

02-09-2015, 10:29 AM	#108
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527 Original Poster	Originally posted by Kenn100D Can it be done on a MF? If you mean downsampling to obtain a higher light sensitivity, yes it can be done on a medium format camera. See for instance the 'Sensor+' feature of the P+ series from Phase One: "Sensor+ for high ISO captures With the P 65+ and the P 40+ you can capture your images with the full resolution, e.g. 60 megapixel, or you can use the Sensor+ technology and go for a faster workflow, capturing images with a quarter of the resolution, e.g. 15 megapixel and gain 4 times higher ISO speeds, up to ISO 3200. Capturing with Sensor+ is especially well suited for shooting in low light conditions. With Sensor+ there are no crop or lens factors; you get the maximum wide angle performance with your lenses." P+ series digital backs \| Features

02-09-2015, 11:03 AM	#109
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by Racerdew As far as the business goes, I would guess Ricoh would not make this a retrofit update. If you have a new technology like this you want to get increase your leverage for profits. I think they would only offer this on new cameras so they would increase sales of new merchandise. That doesn't favor us or my K5 IIs, but it makes business since to drive sales. Look what Apple does with their phones. What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc. Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing...

02-09-2015, 11:06 AM - 2 Likes	#110
fewayne Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Wisconsin Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 115	Mmm, Ricoh might try to maximize profits by eschewing firmware-based feature upgrades for legacy cameras. But that's short-term thinking. Another route is to build a fanatic customer base by ensuring that existing customers don't get screwed over in favor of new business. E.g., Google and the Data Liberation Front). Google makes no money ensuring that I can migrate my data away from them...but they keep me as a customer partly based on that. Likewise Ricoh makes no money off 1970 Pentax glass off eBay, but I'm a Pentaxian in large part because of that commitment. That's two DSLR bodies and a DA lens and counting for them. Not trying to say they're selfless altruists, just that there's more than one way to make money. In the U.S. at least, a cult following is about the best they can hope for, so they might as well cultivate scary-eyed adherents who'll back you into a corner in a bar and hold forth at length about the miracles of Pentax cameras. (Pro tip: This gets you very few dates.)

02-09-2015, 11:08 AM	#111
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by kadajawi What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc. Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing... Pentax also added support for de 1.4 TC for the K-5. I doubt that this function can be achieved by firmware though. It needs more precise movement. Different from SR. Maybe the K-3 could do it. But before that. I doubt it.

02-09-2015, 11:08 AM	#112
kadajawi Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Posts: 2,799	Originally posted by Clavius Then why didn't Sony just use downsampling on the 36mp A7r instead of marketing a seperate 12mp camera? I was told it was the bigger sensels that produce the superior light sensitivity. There is no trick to reproduce it with smaller sensel sensors. If only it were true. Then we could have cameras that use the full resolution in bright daylight, and just downsample to user specific settings to reach the desired light sensitivity in low light situations. It is not that clear cut. The A7S was made with video in mind. 12 MP is basically 4K if you crop away the top and bottom. It's ideal for 4K video. There are gaps between the pixels in a normal sensor. That is why with a high res sensor more space is wasted due to these gaps. That is also the reason why the 28 MP BSI Samsung sensor has (IIRC) the same size per pixel as their 20 MP sensor. BSI minimizes the space wasted between the pixels. Pentax added support for hardware they want to sell you. Of course they do that. They want you to buy the TC. But updates to actually improve the camera, to add functionality... that is rare. Other brands do it, Pentax doesn't (or rarely).

02-09-2015, 11:10 AM - 1 Like	#113
fewayne Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Wisconsin Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 115	Heh. "Cultivate". I crack myself up sometimes.

02-09-2015, 11:26 AM	#114
BrianR Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Ontario Photos: Gallery Posts: 3,332	Originally posted by fewayne Not trying to say they're selfless altruists, just that there's more than one way to make money. In the U.S. at least, a cult following is about the best they can hope for, so they might as well cultivate scary-eyed adherents who'll back you into a corner in a bar and hold forth at length about the miracles of Pentax cameras. (Pro tip: This gets you very few dates.) "Few" sounds better then "zero"...how many restraining orders does this method yield?

02-09-2015, 11:39 AM	#115
Gimbal Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Sweden Posts: 2,106	Originally posted by Clavius Then why didn't Sony just use downsampling on the 36mp A7r instead of marketing a seperate 12mp camera? I was told it was the bigger sensels that produce the superior light sensitivity. There is no trick to reproduce it with smaller sensel sensors. If only it were true. Then we could have cameras that use the full resolution in bright daylight, and just downsample to user specific settings to reach the desired light sensitivity in low light situations. It isn't that superior when it comes to noise in still pictures compared to a down sampled 36mp version, it's less then 0,5 iso step according to dxo mark. Video is another thing as the 36mp camera doesn't down sample to video size but instead skips pixels, and thus lose information as it doesn't use the entire sensor area.

02-09-2015, 11:56 AM	#116
fewayne Site Supporter Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: Wisconsin Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 115	Originally posted by BrianR "Few" sounds better then "zero"...how many restraining orders does this method yield? Upon the advice of counsel, I decline to reply. But eventually, she did marry me, so there's that.

02-09-2015, 12:06 PM	#117
falconeye Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Munich, Alps, Germany Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,871	Superresolution is old tech. Everybody can play with it, e.g., try -> PhotoAcute Studio Example :: Processing the images taken using tripod, with trees swinging in snowstorm, with no PhotoAcute Studio profile for the given camera/lens. However, I wouldn't expect that much resolution increase from the superresolution approach. Not with Bayer filter sensors (monochrome sensors could perform a bit better). And there is no way the resolution would increase 4x, not even 2x. I'll give it an 1.5x improvement under ideal conditions, talking from experience. Certainly no killer feature.

02-09-2015, 12:58 PM	#118
mamethot Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Greater Montreal Area Posts: 736	Originally posted by kadajawi What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc. Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing... Not exactly my experience with my ipad 1st generation. After resetting to factory defaults, most of the apps I had are no longer available or new versions does not install on this hardware. Might be that I don't know how to find and install older versions of apps, but I am basically in possession of a 500$ paper weight...

02-09-2015, 01:00 PM - 1 Like	#119
6BQ5 Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Nevada, USA Photos: Albums Posts: 3,348	Originally posted by kadajawi What do you mean? Apple does offer updates long after they stopped selling a phone, giving the phone new features etc. Samsung has added plenty of stuff after the launch of the NX1, so has Olympus, etc. Times are changing... Ahh, but remember what Apple did with their Maps application? Even though the application could run on the older iPhone 4 Apple wanted people to upgrade so they locked the app out from that device. People cited Google Maps as the baseline but that didn't sway Apple. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

02-09-2015, 01:12 PM	#120
normhead Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Near Algonquin Park Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 40,451	Originally posted by 6BQ5 Ahh, but remember what Apple did with their Maps application? Even though the application could run on the older iPhone 4 Apple wanted people to upgrade so they locked the app out from that device. People cited Google Maps as the baseline but that didn't sway Apple. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Apple rather arbitrarily decides when you hardware is too old. I'm using an iPhone three, and I'm sure I'm getting close, but so far, everything runs great. My guess is Apple will release any updates to Aperture needed for OS upgrades for a while, they just won't spend money on new features. But. my old Core 2 duo 7 years ole still runs on10.6. It still does way more than I bought it to do.... you may not be able to do whatever new thing they think is great. But, with the last upgrades, I didn't notice a single improvement... though they claim to have made 200 of them.