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02-15-2015, 05:04 AM - 1 Like   #256
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Ricoh doesn't have to make a cheap equipped camera, even if you think the X-T1 is cheaply made....I have never used one so I can't say.

I can tell you that if this was made into a FF camera it would sell like crazy...
Guess what - Pentax is beating Fuji with the Q! (on the Japanese MILC market, 7.2% vs. 5.1%)
OTOH, I would also pay more for a quality product. But, it has to be a Pentax quality product - not a Fuji copy

02-15-2015, 05:55 AM   #257
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
.....snip
However, there is nothing that says you can't have a lovely gorgeous wife that can cook equally well.

Bottom line...one may be cheaper than the other......

Regards!
Sure... but chances are that the gorgeous one will cheat on you faster than you could taste all her cooking skills...

"Be very careful with what you wish for; as you may get it!"
02-15-2015, 10:53 AM   #258
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So what might be the attractive new features that competitors don't have? Or are they thinking things like the AA simulator qualify?
02-15-2015, 11:27 AM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Painter Quote
So what might be the attractive new features that competitors don't have? Or are they thinking things like the AA simulator qualify?
Small, D610 price for D810 IQ and performance. very nice viewfinder.

Something akin to the K3. Excellent value for a very capable body.

02-15-2015, 12:16 PM   #260
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QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
Small, D610 price for D810 IQ and performance. very nice viewfinder.
I don't think Ricoh wants to position itself as a el-cheapo alternative to Canikon, i.e. I don't think Pentax FF system will be cheap.
02-15-2015, 12:32 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by cxdoo Quote
I don't think Ricoh wants to position itself as a el-cheapo alternative to Canikon, i.e. I don't think Pentax FF system will be cheap.
while it sure won't be cheap, it's surely a better "value" than other offers out there in the same price segment. That's the Pentax way... So far.
02-15-2015, 12:34 PM   #262
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In an interview they said that it will cost what other cameras on the same technical level cost, too. Whatever that means.

In the large prism housing is a technical innovation, but they didn't say what it is.
02-15-2015, 12:35 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by Painter Quote
So what might be the attractive new features that competitors don't have? Or are they thinking things like the AA simulator qualify?
The Pentax FF will be the flagship, therefore won't have the crippling of 2nd tier cameras like the D610. I'm not going to take time to do the research, but i think the 610 has fewer AF points, etc., doesn't have 1/8000 shutter, perhaps some cutbacks on bracketing. Even the D810 doesn't have all the features of the D4. With only 1 FF, Pentax is going to give you everything they can. Hopefully, they won't cripple the K3 replacement,, the smaller sensor should be the only reason to move up, or not.

The WR of Pentax is generations ahead of Sony's A series, which is no small deal. Do folks really want a camera that can't be taken outside - duh. I've gone snowshoeing with my K3, and it was great to have a camera i didn't have to baby when the weather turned adverse. The early A7's even had light leaks. I don't know how the D610 compares in WR - does anyone. If its hard to find out - thats not a good indicator either.

02-15-2015, 12:54 PM - 1 Like   #264
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Ricoh could do just fine bringing the core technologies in the FF system nearer the current industry leaders (for instance, AF is a combination of lenses and body, so 6 - 8 new lenses with much better AF will help the AF system), flash system (flash sync speed, flash integration with the new flashes, better P-TTL, better remote flash triggering), shutter speed (perhaps part of the flash system issues), further tracking AF improvements, etc. These aren't inexpensive improvements.

Assuming Ricoh is true to the Pentax ethos:
  • wringing more out of the Sony sensor
  • WR seals (or maybe AW sealing like a * lens in the LX tradition)
  • further IBIS improvements and applications
  • quality construction (mag alloy chassis, machined peripherals)
  • attention to ergonomics
  • the optical viewfinder
  • smaller than competitors for the feature set specified
the new camera can be significantly different and very competitive as an alternative camera in its feature class without delivering any groundbreaking new technology.

That isn't to say there won't be anything new, just that something new isn't particularly necessary.

One thing though - we'll need to pay for D810 features if we expect a D810 alternative. They won't price a high-spec. FF camera at $2,200. Even this late in its product cycle a D810 body-only is still $3,299 List and $2,999 on sale at B&H.
02-15-2015, 01:02 PM   #265
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Re D610, it has 39 focus points, with 9 cross-type ones (compared to K-3's 27 focus points, 25 cross type). D610's AF also only works down to -1 EV, which is K-5/K-x territory. The D750/D810 and flagship D4s all share the same 51 point/15 cross type AF, complicating the issue of what 'flagship' AF should mean.

QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I don't know how the D610 compares in WR - does anyone.

D610 has a degree of WR. But it seems a half-hearted implementation compared to K-5/K-3 grade WR. Little things - like how the doors for the D610 battery and SD cards are flimsy and don't clamp tightly at all over the [barely present] gaskets - suggest that Nikon went for the minimal amount of WR required to say the camera has weather sealing.

Last edited by rawr; 02-15-2015 at 01:08 PM.
02-15-2015, 01:48 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by Timd Quote
When I saw the original photos. it was "obvious" that there was no pop-up flash. However, seeing that it is a mock-up, perhaps they have not detailed the flash and it indeed does have a pop-up flash. Are there any official spec of this camera that states that there is no on board flash or are we all speculating?!
I think that during the off-topic conversation with Kawauchi-san, he said that there will be no popup flash in this FF.

And that is good. Pentax was the company who first introduced popup flash in a SLR. Then everybody thought it was a weird nonsense, but soon everybody followed.

So, if they decided they finally have a digital camera that benefits from not having it, I know they know what they are doing. Let's stop complaining about the camera we practically know nothing about, shall we?

---------- Post added 02-16-2015 at 08:01 AM ----------

Also from the interview and from the off-topic conversation later, it was obvious that the focus now is the FF. APS-C has matured, K-3 made in such a way it can go for years without update. 645 satisfied for a longer while. Now is FF time. Also, they will not update any of the crop DA lenses, but focus on D-FA lenses.

And that is great, which then means that the focus will be on delivering quality alternative for users who want to try FF. Better optics than competitor's, different features in the camera, and improvements that others do not bother with. Summed up together, they constitute a substantial value.

Exclusive quality of products + uniqueness.

Last edited by Uluru; 02-15-2015 at 02:02 PM.
02-15-2015, 02:29 PM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by cxdoo Quote
I don't think Ricoh wants to position itself as a el-cheapo alternative to Canikon, i.e. I don't think Pentax FF system will be cheap.
Yes, the way Pentax will succeed is by the quality of their products. This "Snapsort" comparison is the kind of thing I've been seeing this past year:

Canon T5i vs Pentax K-S1 - Our Analysis

The K-S1 betters its Canon rival in areas such as image quality, color depth, dynamic range and size,
while the Canon does better only in areas such as popularity.
02-15-2015, 02:32 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by blende8 Quote
it will cost what other cameras on the same technical level cost, too. Whatever that means.
36mp?
02-15-2015, 03:10 PM   #269
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OK, maybe a D4 feature range for a D810 price. There are certain expensive bits, but whenever I look at Nikon specs I see a concerted effort to not canabalize it's higher end offerings. Pentax isn't in a position to do that which allows then to threaten the incumbents.
02-15-2015, 05:00 PM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
Just my opinion, and I already know that has little value, but it is a thought that has made Fuji a ton of cash in their X series cameras.
The retro style Fuji adopted surely contributed to their financial success, but that doesn't mean it should be adopted by a company that wants to build useful cameras rather than old looking ones (whether they look "good" is a matter of taste and probably also depends on the age of the eye of the beholder).

The term "retro" refers to going back, i.e., taking steps backwards which only corresponds to an improvement if recent forward steps led to some form of degradation. There are cases in which modern developments are degradations because they were driven by cost-cutting measures of manufacturers or are due to attempts to dumb down interfaces to make them more mass-compatible, for instance.

I'm convinced that camera interfaces are not improved by taking steps backwards. There is nothing wrong with the touch and feel quality of a flagship Pentax DSLR so there is no need to go back to all metal mechanical interfaces that have their own disadvantages.

The "soft dials" approach of modern cameras has many advantages over the old mechanical dials. A non-exhaustive enumeration includes
  • the function of dials can be changed according to a shooting mode or just user preference.
  • A change of shooting mode can switch the function of some of the dials into "camera-controlled", with lots of different auto combinations that would never be achievable by just using "A" positions on mechanical dials.
  • User modes can set any combination of dials to predefined values that are the user's preferred starting points for that mode (e.g., using 1/180s for the shutter speed when using a flash mode).
  • It is easy to swap between 1/2 or 1/3 adjustments.
  • Dials can have a double or triple function depending on whether one presses certain buttons in combination with them, etc.
Old-school dials have their advantages, e.g. that one can read setting while the camera is turned off but they pale against the advantages of soft dials.

AFAIC, "retro" with respect to camera design mostly means "nostalgic" and is not a step into the right direction unless a company is happy to produce less usable cameras in order to make some bucks by catering to a certain demographic sector.

There is nothing wrong with the latter, but the new Pentax FF should have optimal usability and should therefore not sacrifice ergonomics on the altar of "good" looks.

Last edited by Class A; 02-15-2015 at 05:07 PM.
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