Unveiling of the Full Frame Prototype

**Nakedgun** · 06-10-2015, 06:30 PM

Originally posted by starjedi

Frankly speaking, I hope Pentax will take 36MP sensor and price it at $2000. It will be much better than taking the latest sensor but price it at $3500.[COLOR="Silver"]

Better in what way?

mee · 06-10-2015, 06:42 PM

Originally posted by Nakedgun

Better in what way?

Obtainability for more customers.

virusn3t · 06-10-2015, 06:59 PM

What can be the more expensive part on the FF camera? Prism, Sensor, SR mechanism? Development, logistic distribution? or sale expectative too low or too high to set the price where everybody win

disconnekt · 06-10-2015, 07:05 PM

Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.
I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.

aleonx3 · 06-10-2015, 07:12 PM

Originally posted by disconnekt

Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.
I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.

OTOH, Ricoh needs to compete with D810, D750 etc. as some have already suggested, it is likely this sensor that they have been waiting for... Sony needs to release their new model first before Ricoh can have it (some months later)....

reh321 · 06-10-2015, 07:15 PM

Originally posted by disconnekt

Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.
I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.

The thing I'm not certain of is where a FF sensor becomes so crowded that it starts losing some dynamic range and color depth advantages; I hope Pentax stays on the right side of that line.

mee · 06-10-2015, 07:17 PM

Originally posted by disconnekt

Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.
I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.

That is the other part to this... make it too high resolution and you sip sales from the 645 line..

I'm thinking it would be smarter to make it much less MP and more DR oriented.

Class A · 06-10-2015, 07:23 PM

Wow, just recently a 1" BSI sensor was big news and now Sony presents an FF version!

Sony surely went all out with their NY press conference announcements.

Did they perhaps collaborate with Ricoh on the image stabilisation and shutter (regarding vibration & noise)? Seems like they have addressed almost all their previous shortcomings.

If Sony now also offers true RAW data instead of their lossy compressed data then only the EVF (and perhaps the form factor) would speak against the A7R II.

As much as the 42MP sensor would rock in the Pentax FF, I fear it would make the camera too expensive, unless they can save considerable cost by forgoing internal 4K recording.

Shanti · 06-10-2015, 07:28 PM

Originally posted by aleonx3

OTOH, Ricoh needs to compete with D810, D750 etc. as some have already suggested, it is likely this sensor that they have been waiting for... Sony needs to release their new model first before Ricoh can have it (some months later)....

and Dec is a few months after...Kenspo said it will be a notch above anything out there now..so that means to me above D810.exciting times

rawr · 06-10-2015, 07:28 PM

Sony being a huge sensor shop, they may also have developed another new BSI FF sensor other than the 42MP one.

There could be new Sony 24MP or 28MP or 36MP BSI FF chips out there too. Ricoh and Nikon may have access to them for new cameras, while Sony keeps the 42MP chip for themselves. Who knows.

bobmaxja · 06-10-2015, 07:47 PM

Ricoh is going after the PRo and want to be seen as Pro FF. Forget the low cost FF. THey want to protect their 645 business or people who have 645 add the Pentax FF to their stable . That the people who have money and they can make more money per unit than selling cheap FF.

**monochrome** · 06-10-2015, 08:11 PM

Originally posted by LFLee

don't think so... should be consider lucky if Pentax FF get the 36MP A7R is using.

Originally posted by Zygonyx

You didn't listen to kenspo either...

So long as Ricoh is willing to pay for it Sony will sell it to them. We're just accustomed to Ricoh (by previous owners) not being willing to pay up for the newest sensors.

npc · 06-10-2015, 08:11 PM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by disconnekt

Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.

If you don't cannibialize yourself - others will do it. The sensor is out there - it is better for Ricoh that people buy a Ricoh camera that has it (and lenses) instead of 645Z rather than a Sony camera and most probably later a Nikon as well.

JPT · 06-10-2015, 08:31 PM

I think Ricoh has to make a $2000 camera and a $3500 camera to stand a chance. Without both, they won't get the volume on the lenses they need to make a viable system.

If they can't release them at the same time, it makes much more sense to release the high end one first. Pentax is never going to be the cheapest FF option while there are second hand cameras on the market from their competitors anyway. Also, look at what happened to Sony when they tried the cheap conventional FF strategy with the AX00 cameras.

Ricoh needs to make a splash with the best image quality and new features if they are too stand a chance of getting people to switch from Canon and Nikon. I don't see how a D750 clone alone will help them do that.

This might not make people who are expecting for a cheap FF in November happy, but I think it makes sense if Ricoh wants to make a success of K-mount FF.

mee · 06-10-2015, 08:40 PM

Originally posted by JPT

I think Ricoh has to make a $2000 camera and a $3500 camera to stand a chance. Without both, they won't get the volume on the lenses they need to make a viable system.

If they can't release them at the same time, it makes much more sense to release the high end one first. Pentax is never going to be the cheapest FF option while there are second hand cameras on the market from their competitors anyway. Also, look at what happened to Sony when they tried the cheap conventional FF strategy with the AX00 cameras.

Ricoh needs to make a splash with the best image quality and new features if they are too stand a chance of getting people to switch from Canon and Nikon. I don't see how a D750 clone alone will help them do that.

This might not make people who are expecting for a cheap FF in November happy, but I think it makes sense if Ricoh wants to make a success of K-mount FF.

That's an interesting thought. The primary issue I see with this, however, is if Ricoh does as you say and releases the top end FF body first, if they then dont release the lower cost body soon after, they jeopardize sales of the lower cost body due to second hand sales of the top end body. I mean, once the top end FF body is out there for sometime, prices inherently lower. Second hand prices are usually at least 25% under that price. The Lower cost body then comes out and why buy it when one can get a better specced camera for the same or slightly more (even if having to buy second hand) ??

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06-10-2015, 06:30 PM	#751
Nakedgun Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Apr 2014 Location: Southwest Posts: 1,365	Originally posted by starjedi Frankly speaking, I hope Pentax will take 36MP sensor and price it at $2000. It will be much better than taking the latest sensor but price it at $3500.[COLOR="Silver"] Better in what way?

06-10-2015, 06:42 PM	#752
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by Nakedgun Better in what way? Obtainability for more customers.

06-10-2015, 06:59 PM	#753
virusn3t Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2014 Posts: 676	What can be the more expensive part on the FF camera? Prism, Sensor, SR mechanism? Development, logistic distribution? or sale expectative too low or too high to set the price where everybody win

06-10-2015, 07:05 PM	#754
disconnekt Pentaxian Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: SoCal/I.E. Photos: Albums Posts: 1,699	Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z. I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.

06-10-2015, 07:12 PM	#755
aleonx3 Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Brampton, Ontario Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 3,996	Originally posted by disconnekt Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z. I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards. OTOH, Ricoh needs to compete with D810, D750 etc. as some have already suggested, it is likely this sensor that they have been waiting for... Sony needs to release their new model first before Ricoh can have it (some months later)....

06-10-2015, 07:15 PM	#756
reh321 Pentaxian Join Date: Nov 2014 Location: South Bend, IN, USA Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 23,180	Originally posted by disconnekt Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z. I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards. The thing I'm not certain of is where a FF sensor becomes so crowded that it starts losing some dynamic range and color depth advantages; I hope Pentax stays on the right side of that line.

06-10-2015, 07:17 PM	#757
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by disconnekt Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z. I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards. That is the other part to this... make it too high resolution and you sip sales from the 645 line.. I'm thinking it would be smarter to make it much less MP and more DR oriented.

06-10-2015, 07:23 PM	#758
Class A Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2008 Location: Wellington, New Zealand Posts: 11,251 Original Poster	Wow, just recently a 1" BSI sensor was big news and now Sony presents an FF version! Sony surely went all out with their NY press conference announcements. Did they perhaps collaborate with Ricoh on the image stabilisation and shutter (regarding vibration & noise)? Seems like they have addressed almost all their previous shortcomings. If Sony now also offers true RAW data instead of their lossy compressed data then only the EVF (and perhaps the form factor) would speak against the A7R II. As much as the 42MP sensor would rock in the Pentax FF, I fear it would make the camera too expensive, unless they can save considerable cost by forgoing internal 4K recording.

06-10-2015, 07:28 PM	#759
Shanti Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Location: Western Denmark Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 927	Originally posted by aleonx3 OTOH, Ricoh needs to compete with D810, D750 etc. as some have already suggested, it is likely this sensor that they have been waiting for... Sony needs to release their new model first before Ricoh can have it (some months later).... and Dec is a few months after...Kenspo said it will be a notch above anything out there now..so that means to me above D810.exciting times

06-10-2015, 07:28 PM	#760
rawr Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 11,913	Sony being a huge sensor shop, they may also have developed another new BSI FF sensor other than the 42MP one. There could be new Sony 24MP or 28MP or 36MP BSI FF chips out there too. Ricoh and Nikon may have access to them for new cameras, while Sony keeps the 42MP chip for themselves. Who knows.

06-10-2015, 07:47 PM	#761
bobmaxja Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Laval, Quebec Canada Posts: 2,171	Ricoh is going after the PRo and want to be seen as Pro FF. Forget the low cost FF. THey want to protect their 645 business or people who have 645 add the Pentax FF to their stable . That the people who have money and they can make more money per unit than selling cheap FF.

06-10-2015, 08:11 PM	#762
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Originally posted by LFLee don't think so... should be consider lucky if Pentax FF get the 36MP A7R is using. Originally posted by Zygonyx You didn't listen to kenspo either... So long as Ricoh is willing to pay for it Sony will sell it to them. We're just accustomed to Ricoh (by previous owners) not being willing to pay up for the newest sensors.

06-10-2015, 08:11 PM - 1 Like	#763
npc Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2013 Posts: 313	Originally posted by disconnekt Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z. If you don't cannibialize yourself - others will do it. The sensor is out there - it is better for Ricoh that people buy a Ricoh camera that has it (and lenses) instead of 645Z rather than a Sony camera and most probably later a Nikon as well.

06-10-2015, 08:31 PM	#764
JPT Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Tokyo Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,821	I think Ricoh has to make a $2000 camera and a $3500 camera to stand a chance. Without both, they won't get the volume on the lenses they need to make a viable system. If they can't release them at the same time, it makes much more sense to release the high end one first. Pentax is never going to be the cheapest FF option while there are second hand cameras on the market from their competitors anyway. Also, look at what happened to Sony when they tried the cheap conventional FF strategy with the AX00 cameras. Ricoh needs to make a splash with the best image quality and new features if they are too stand a chance of getting people to switch from Canon and Nikon. I don't see how a D750 clone alone will help them do that. This might not make people who are expecting for a cheap FF in November happy, but I think it makes sense if Ricoh wants to make a success of K-mount FF.

06-10-2015, 08:40 PM	#765
mee Veteran Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 7,403	Originally posted by JPT I think Ricoh has to make a $2000 camera and a $3500 camera to stand a chance. Without both, they won't get the volume on the lenses they need to make a viable system. If they can't release them at the same time, it makes much more sense to release the high end one first. Pentax is never going to be the cheapest FF option while there are second hand cameras on the market from their competitors anyway. Also, look at what happened to Sony when they tried the cheap conventional FF strategy with the AX00 cameras. Ricoh needs to make a splash with the best image quality and new features if they are too stand a chance of getting people to switch from Canon and Nikon. I don't see how a D750 clone alone will help them do that. This might not make people who are expecting for a cheap FF in November happy, but I think it makes sense if Ricoh wants to make a success of K-mount FF. That's an interesting thought. The primary issue I see with this, however, is if Ricoh does as you say and releases the top end FF body first, if they then dont release the lower cost body soon after, they jeopardize sales of the lower cost body due to second hand sales of the top end body. I mean, once the top end FF body is out there for sometime, prices inherently lower. Second hand prices are usually at least 25% under that price. The Lower cost body then comes out and why buy it when one can get a better specced camera for the same or slightly more (even if having to buy second hand) ??