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06-10-2015, 08:55 PM   #766
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
True, but the original A7 is lacking in many ways. I own the A7II and I would have never considered the A7. The A7 is going on 2 years and is a plastic body with poor ergonomics and AF.
But they more than made up for it in the A7II if it has that sensor I won't be sad 😀

06-10-2015, 09:02 PM   #767
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That's an interesting thought. The primary issue I see with this, however, is if Ricoh does as you say and releases the top end FF body first, if they then dont release the lower cost body soon after, they jeopardize sales of the lower cost body due to second hand sales of the top end body. I mean, once the top end FF body is out there for sometime, prices inherently lower. Second hand prices are usually at least 25% under that price. The Lower cost body then comes out and why buy it when one can get a better specced camera for the same or slightly more (even if having to buy second hand) ??
True, but if a customer ends up with a Pentax at all, it has to be considered a win. The market is full of second hand D800s and 5Ds that could tempt a potential low end Pentax FF buyer, and Ricoh can't do anything about that by restricting their own lineup.
06-10-2015, 09:16 PM   #768
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QuoteOriginally posted by JPT Quote
True, but if a customer ends up with a Pentax at all, it has to be considered a win. The market is full of second hand D800s and 5Ds that could tempt a potential low end Pentax FF buyer, and Ricoh can't do anything about that by restricting their own lineup.
That is a tough place in which to be.. d610 bodies are under 1k used now.. in 6 months they won't cost any more than this.. then, as you mention, used D800 bodies are really out there... the market is really stating to 'fill' with affordable Full Frame digital bodies..

If Ricoh releases a sub 2k body, it better be very desirable.. we're starting to get into armchair company running.. but I'd say Ricoh would be well advised to be mindful of camera body pricing. Perhaps coming in at a lower price on the body can be made up in lens sales. I'd rather have the FF body now and use old F or FA lenses while I save for the newer D-FA lenses... than wait for a FF body + D-FA lens combo to come down in price...
06-10-2015, 10:07 PM   #769
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To deliver a full frame affordable for Pentaxians, Ricoh may have a 24Mpixel sensor of the D610, but Pentax FF may have the pixel shift feature, which the D610/D750 don't have.

---------- Post added 11-06-15 at 07:17 ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That is a tough place in which to be.. d610 bodies are under 1k used now.. in 6 months they won't cost any more than this.. then, as you mention, used D800 bodies are really out there... the market is really stating to 'fill' with affordable Full Frame digital bodies..
That's to be expected. As volumes of FF cameras are increasing, costs are being reduced, prices more affordable; a snowball effect is taking place, the FF digital format slowly becomes the new mainstream format.

06-10-2015, 10:23 PM   #770
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
we're starting to get into armchair company running.
Indeed. But we are omitting the most important step - Pentax has to release a FF camera !!

Ricoh could wait forever for the perfect alignment of sensor, AF, lenses, market conditions etc to happen before launch, but they need to start with a v1.0 FF body at some point.

Getting to the point of releasing a D810 grade body, AF and 36 MP sensor would be impressive, and shouldn't be impossible in 2015, since it's basically three years old tech. Something like a 42MP BSI sensor inside would be icing on the cake, but IMHO not critical to positive market acceptance of a Pentax FF v1.0.
06-10-2015, 11:45 PM   #771
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Its very possible that we see 2 FF bodies. One with the 24MP and one with the new 42MP. The 24MP would allow Ricoh to hit the sub $2,000 price point. The 42MP would give them a higher end option to compete with Canon's 50MP and the A99II.
Actually it's not. They will start with one body, and Asahiman said ages ago it will have more than 24MP.
Hitting a sub $2000 price point is not important IMO. Competing in price - which is done by cost cutting - means competing with older, discounted models.
06-11-2015, 12:04 AM   #772
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Getting to the point of releasing a D810 grade body, AF and 36 MP sensor would be impressive, and shouldn't be impossible in 2015, since it's basically three years old tech. Something like a 42MP BSI sensor inside would be icing on the cake, but IMHO not critical to positive market acceptance of a Pentax FF v1.0.
Poss but not prob, I think. If Pentax release an FF with an older generation of sensor, then the economics likely aren't so good. Chances are Ricoh would have to ask a lower price for the camera and over time the price would drop more quickly than it otherwise would since the longevity of the camera would be affected. Put simply, it would look outdated faster. Higher than average depreciation is already an issue with Pentax cameras, so far as I can see. One can be pretty sure that if the BSI generation really is an improvement - moot since we don't really know all the details, today - then there will be a Nikon D820 and D760 fairly soon in 2016. Any Pentax FF with an older sensor wouldn't be all that attractive an offer. There would be leakage from upgraders moving over to Sony and Nikon because they want that new sensor tech and leakage from upgraders choosing instead to go segundo mano among the plethora of used D800s and so on.

So what could Pentax bring to the party over the A7IIR? A ruff-tuff fully WR body for professional use, much better battery life, possibly higher FPS, non-lossy RAW, an OVF for those who prefer it and maybe a trick or two we haven't thought of - good tethering, usb3, superior flash and lighting sync, etc. Then there could be much improved AF using the new BSI chip's on-sensor AF. That's enough to make an attractive camera for the more traditionally minded customer, I'd have thought. There isn't much else in the locker.

Last edited by mecrox; 06-11-2015 at 12:26 AM.
06-11-2015, 12:29 AM   #773
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QuoteOriginally posted by mecrox Quote
possibly higher FPS, non-lossy RAW, an OVF for those who prefer it and maybe a trick or two we haven't thought of
Higher FPS is a tough one. Five frames per second is plenty for an FF sensor with 36MP or more. Going faster requires electronics with higher bandwidth and that's not cheap. I'd say high fps specs are perhaps better associated with ASP-C as I don't think there is space in the market for a low MP FF camera from Pentax that is geared towards sports or similar.

The trick we haven't thought of could perhaps be a hybrid viewfinder. It should definitely be optical, but it would be nice if it could overlay information, for instance, assisting with manual focus and/or overexposure warnings.

Regarding price, I hope Ricoh does not go the exclusive route and demand a high-end price for the FF model. I don't see such a camera selling in sufficient numbers.

06-11-2015, 12:59 AM   #774
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I hope Ricoh does not go the exclusive route and demand a high-end price for the FF model.
I suspect they won't be tempted to do that. The 'affordable' pricing of the 645Z relative to competitors shows that Ricoh are aware that good value sells. Even 'pros' aren't immune to sticker shock.

At worst, any Pentax FF body (if it's recent 'pro' DFA lens prices are any guide) will be priced at or about the same $$ as similar Nikon's. Maybe a little less - eg Pentax 70-200 f2.8 is US $2296 at B&H vs Nikon 70-200 f2.8 US $2396.
06-11-2015, 01:26 AM   #775
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QuoteOriginally posted by disconnekt Quote
Doubt they'll make it a 42MP, since it'll be competing against & take sales from the 645Z.
I think it'll be more likely 24 or 28 MP, with at least 8FPS minimum, dual SD cards.
I don't think potential 645z-customers readlly consider the medium format camera for the extra MP's. Besides, the sensor is out there anyway. Better eat into those sales themselves then?

What I am wondering is, with this on-sensor phase detection AF of such high quality, is this DSLR is going to have better focussing during live view then via OVF? Hope not, that would be awkward.
06-11-2015, 02:17 AM   #776
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
with this on-sensor phase detection AF of such high quality, is this DSLR is going to have better focussing during live view then via OVF? Hope not, that would be awkward.
It seems a real possibility. But from reviews of the Canon 7D II, which also has a hybrid phase-detection system (on-sensor PDAF plus traditional dedicated PDAF sensor), the 'traditional' AF still performs faster, if perhaps not as accurately as sensor based.
06-11-2015, 02:18 AM   #777
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QuoteOriginally posted by starjedi Quote
Frankly speaking, I hope Pentax will take 36MP sensor and price it at $2000. It will be much better than taking the latest sensor but price it at $3500.
I don't think a sensor alone would make a 1500 dollar difference.
06-11-2015, 02:43 AM   #778
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
It seems a real possibility. But from reviews of the Canon 7D II, which also has a hybrid phase-detection system (on-sensor PDAF plus traditional dedicated PDAF sensor), the 'traditional' AF still performs faster, if perhaps not as accurately as sensor based.
Yes, I intentionally used the term "better" instead of "faster". If LV is more accurate with acceptable speed then it's LV all the way for most people.
06-11-2015, 02:50 AM   #779
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
That is the other part to this... make it too high resolution and you sip sales from the 645 line..
Only until the Pentax 645ZF arrives with 113 mp* full frame BSI sensor

(*) 113 mp is what you get if you make a 645 full frame sensor with the same pixel size as the 42mp FF sensor. A 44x33 sensor would be 71mp.
06-11-2015, 02:57 AM - 1 Like   #780
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Reading the tea leaves, it sure seems as though Ricoh is looking at this new sensor. That said, I don't see why that should push the price in the 3500 dollar range. That seems silly to me. Sony isn't going to sell their camera containing this sensor anywhere near that price. My guess would be something in the 2500 dollar range, maybe just a hair under a D810 price. It just makes sense.

They aren't going to release two cameras and they aren't going to release a cheap version of the full frame camera, at least not initially.

As to stealing from 645z sales, I wouldn't worry about it. Digital medium format is a pretty rarefied market and those who shoot it do so for particular reasons (dynamic range, particular glass) and not just for high megapixels.

The big thing that I hope is that Ricoh makes serious effort to make this camera have decent video. It can be done and it certainly would expand the market for such a camera, at least a little bit. I know they have always been more about still photography, but it doesn't make sense not to make effort to make their offerings appealing to those who shoot video.
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