Unveiling of the Full Frame Prototype

D1N0 · 04-30-2015, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by KDAFA

Reflecting further, if FF has a stabilisation advantage over APS-C, where does this advantage stem from, if I might ask? Was thinking it through but don't quite get it...

For example if as a portrait photographer I use an APS-C body @50mm focal length, effectively the IBIS has to stabilise a 75mm focal length, after multiplying 50 by 1.5.

But if instead I chose to work with a FF body, as many portrait photographers do, I would then chose a lens of approx 70-85mm focal length, say, eg. the FA77. Thus the IBIS now has to deal with a 77mm focal length (this time without having to multiply by 1.5). So it's working out to the same thing, it seems to me. I'm sorry, I don't understand where the stabilisation advantage is coming from.

Because the sensor is bigger, but camera shake stays the same.(this is of course an unknown because it depends on the photographer). Since a FF is not cropped motion blur will be less obvious because it is relatively smaller. (unless you go and crop) Also the pixels on de FF will be bigger (probably, we don't know the mp yet). So that motion blur will be less obvious. Bigger pixels can be moved more before they flow into their neigbours (Of course when you want to make large prints it is always best to shoot of a tripod or at higher shutter times). The focal length is minimum shutter time rule comes from the film age and you should actually apply a factor 1.5 to it. (although I could go down to 1/15th with a 50mm lens back then with varying results.)

windhorse · 04-30-2015, 11:12 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

Also the pixels on de FF will be bigger (probably, we don't know the mp yet)

My aps-c sized K5 sensor is 16MP. It is highly unlikely the FF sensor will be less than 20 something MPs and most likely will include a version with 30 something MPs, in which case some math is required to figure out if the actual pixels or whatever they are called on the sensor of the FF turn out to be bigger (less prone to shake?) than on my K5. Unfortunately I am no good at math. Anyway I hope so since the SR on the K5 is ok but could be better.

Apart from sensor size, the effectiveness of SR seems to have a lot to do with what type of SR system is used: mechanical, optical, X axis etc. One can hope that the SR system of the upcoming FF is a new and improved one and therefore gives more effective reduction of camera shake than on the legacy cameras, which is quite important if potential users like me want to be able to use the upcoming FF hand held in low light at least as comfortably as with the aps-c cameras.

Unless of course the FF comes with a built-in tripod instead of a built-in flash :-)

D1N0 · 05-26-2015, 04:57 AM

ground *BREAKING* AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text=

bxf · 05-26-2015, 05:06 AM

Hey, built-in GPS. What a surprise!

Clavius · 05-26-2015, 05:28 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

ground *BREAKING* AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text=

I hope this ground breaking feature can be turned off for landscape shooting.

D1N0 · 05-26-2015, 05:33 AM

Originally posted by Clavius

I hope this ground breaking feature can be turned off for landscape shooting.

Sports photographers would also get in trouble. Among farmers it will be a big hit.

Winder · 05-26-2015, 07:14 AM

The two biggest reasons people have moved away from Pentax is the lack of a FF body and poor AF. AF performance will be critical for the K-1.

kenspo · 05-26-2015, 08:32 AM

They are very aware of that issue

harrisonww · 05-26-2015, 11:41 AM

Originally posted by kenspo

They are very aware of that issue

I hope they can rival the big boys in af soon because the image quality is there.

IOO · 05-26-2015, 12:16 PM

Originally posted by Winder

The two biggest reasons people have moved away from Pentax is the lack of a FF body and poor AF. AF performance will be critical for the K-1.

You are right about that, but it I think they will call it K2 or K-2. Here is one of the reasons: | RICOH IMAGING

Why should the make the slogan "Always with you" otherwise? They called the mirrorless K-01, and that was not FF. 0 was for no mirror, but they used the same font as the did with the filmcamereas that introdused the K-Mount. So my guess is K2!

Dan Rentea · 05-26-2015, 11:26 PM

Windhorse, I think the SR of the full frame it will be improved. Why? Look at the new Pentax K-3 II (which I ordered)...is improved over the K3 in terms of SR (with 4.5 shutter steps vs K3's 3,5 shutter steps). Also the already good AF from the K-3 seems to be improve with K-3 II when tracking subjects. So, if you ask me, the full frame will be a very capable "machine".

Personally I don't need a full frame (K-3 II has everything I need), but I must say that I hope that this full frame from Pentax would be the starting point of a new age for Pentax users. With this camera, the circle is complete (best APS-C body with K3, best medium format camera with 645Z, and let's hope the full frame will be a winner to).

Chapeau Pentax!

ogl · 05-27-2015, 12:35 AM

Originally posted by D1N0

ground *BREAKING* AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text=

revolutionary AF function

banep · 05-27-2015, 08:55 AM

Revolutionary or not this is the new Pentax AF system:

thibs · 05-27-2015, 10:02 AM

Originally posted by banep

Revolutionary or not this is the new Pentax AF system:

Thanks Banep. Do you have full patent references?
Might be interesting to try to decipher it.

Thanks

ogl · 05-27-2015, 10:07 AM

AF uses SR system...?

05-26-2015, 11:26 PM	#506
Dan Rentea Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2014 Location: Bucharest Posts: 1,716	Windhorse, I think the SR of the full frame it will be improved. Why? Look at the new Pentax K-3 II (which I ordered)...is improved over the K3 in terms of SR (with 4.5 shutter steps vs K3's 3,5 shutter steps). Also the already good AF from the K-3 seems to be improve with K-3 II when tracking subjects. So, if you ask me, the full frame will be a very capable "machine". Personally I don't need a full frame (K-3 II has everything I need), but I must say that I hope that this full frame from Pentax would be the starting point of a new age for Pentax users. With this camera, the circle is complete (best APS-C body with K3, best medium format camera with 645Z, and let's hope the full frame will be a winner to). Chapeau Pentax! Last edited by Dan Rentea; 05-27-2015 at 12:56 AM.

05-27-2015, 08:55 AM	#508
banep Banned Join Date: Mar 2013 Posts: 360	Revolutionary or not this is the new Pentax AF system: Last edited by banep; 05-27-2015 at 09:08 AM.

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04-30-2015, 08:59 AM	#496
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by KDAFA Reflecting further, if FF has a stabilisation advantage over APS-C, where does this advantage stem from, if I might ask? Was thinking it through but don't quite get it... For example if as a portrait photographer I use an APS-C body @50mm focal length, effectively the IBIS has to stabilise a 75mm focal length, after multiplying 50 by 1.5. But if instead I chose to work with a FF body, as many portrait photographers do, I would then chose a lens of approx 70-85mm focal length, say, eg. the FA77. Thus the IBIS now has to deal with a 77mm focal length (this time without having to multiply by 1.5). So it's working out to the same thing, it seems to me. I'm sorry, I don't understand where the stabilisation advantage is coming from. Because the sensor is bigger, but camera shake stays the same.(this is of course an unknown because it depends on the photographer). Since a FF is not cropped motion blur will be less obvious because it is relatively smaller. (unless you go and crop) Also the pixels on de FF will be bigger (probably, we don't know the mp yet). So that motion blur will be less obvious. Bigger pixels can be moved more before they flow into their neigbours (Of course when you want to make large prints it is always best to shoot of a tripod or at higher shutter times). The focal length is minimum shutter time rule comes from the film age and you should actually apply a factor 1.5 to it. (although I could go down to 1/15th with a 50mm lens back then with varying results.)

04-30-2015, 11:12 AM	#497
windhorse Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Posts: 101	Originally posted by D1N0 Also the pixels on de FF will be bigger (probably, we don't know the mp yet) My aps-c sized K5 sensor is 16MP. It is highly unlikely the FF sensor will be less than 20 something MPs and most likely will include a version with 30 something MPs, in which case some math is required to figure out if the actual pixels or whatever they are called on the sensor of the FF turn out to be bigger (less prone to shake?) than on my K5. Unfortunately I am no good at math. Anyway I hope so since the SR on the K5 is ok but could be better. Apart from sensor size, the effectiveness of SR seems to have a lot to do with what type of SR system is used: mechanical, optical, X axis etc. One can hope that the SR system of the upcoming FF is a new and improved one and therefore gives more effective reduction of camera shake than on the legacy cameras, which is quite important if potential users like me want to be able to use the upcoming FF hand held in low light at least as comfortably as with the aps-c cameras. Unless of course the FF comes with a built-in tripod instead of a built-in flash :-)

05-26-2015, 04:57 AM	#498
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	ground BREAKING AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text=

05-26-2015, 05:06 AM	#499
bxf Veteran Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Lisbon area Posts: 1,660	Hey, built-in GPS. What a surprise!

05-26-2015, 05:28 AM	#500
Clavius Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: De Klundert Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,150	Originally posted by D1N0 ground BREAKING AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text= I hope this ground breaking feature can be turned off for landscape shooting.

05-26-2015, 05:33 AM	#501
D1N0 Pentaxian Join Date: May 2012 Location: --- Photos: Gallery Posts: 6,802	Originally posted by Clavius I hope this ground breaking feature can be turned off for landscape shooting. Sports photographers would also get in trouble. Among farmers it will be a big hit.

05-26-2015, 07:14 AM	#502
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	The two biggest reasons people have moved away from Pentax is the lack of a FF body and poor AF. AF performance will be critical for the K-1.

05-26-2015, 08:32 AM	#503
kenspo Veteran Member Join Date: Mar 2014 Location: Oslo Posts: 2,207	They are very aware of that issue

05-26-2015, 11:41 AM	#504
harrisonww Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: London Ontario Posts: 149	Originally posted by kenspo They are very aware of that issue I hope they can rival the big boys in af soon because the image quality is there.

05-26-2015, 12:16 PM	#505
IOO Senior Member Join Date: May 2012 Location: Flateby Photos: Gallery Posts: 294	Originally posted by Winder The two biggest reasons people have moved away from Pentax is the lack of a FF body and poor AF. AF performance will be critical for the K-1. You are right about that, but it I think they will call it K2 or K-2. Here is one of the reasons: \| RICOH IMAGING Why should the make the slogan "Always with you" otherwise? They called the mirrorless K-01, and that was not FF. 0 was for no mirror, but they used the same font as the did with the filmcamereas that introdused the K-Mount. So my guess is K2!

05-27-2015, 12:35 AM	#507
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	Originally posted by D1N0 ground BREAKING AF in FF Pentax https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=U...tml&edit-text= revolutionary AF function

05-27-2015, 10:02 AM	#509
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by banep Revolutionary or not this is the new Pentax AF system: Thanks Banep. Do you have full patent references? Might be interesting to try to decipher it. Thanks

05-27-2015, 10:07 AM	#510
ogl Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Sankt Peterburg Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 8,382	AF uses SR system...?