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02-21-2015, 08:31 AM   #61
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
What does "an APS-C lens" mean? It certainly isn't the same as "DA or DA* lens"!
If Ricoh designs a solution that only can work with their own lenses (not sure how they could do that anyway) then quite a few folks won't be happy. Should I have written "lenses designed specifically for APS-C sized sensors"? Maybe so but it seems kind of wordy when we all know what we're talking about anyway.

02-21-2015, 10:00 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
It would appear from what I've read, that even lenses that would work on a 35mm film camera, will possibly not have big enough image circle for 35mm with Shake Reduction. MY guess is no DA or DA* lens is going to support a Pentax specification FF lens, and that they will still be considered APS-c lens, in that they are not fully 35 mm with SR compatible, although they may be totally compatible with SR turned off.
Would you accept by default a SLIGHT crop of the FF sensor ( 2%? 3%? 5%?) to allow for shake reduction with eligible lenses?
02-21-2015, 10:07 AM   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Would you accept by default a SLIGHT crop of the FF sensor ( 2%? 3%? 5%?) to allow for shake reduction with eligible lenses?
I'd accept using the lens as is and doing my own crop in PP. I've noticed with the 18-135, mine only vignettes on the top corners with SR on. No need to crop the bottom.
02-21-2015, 11:02 AM   #64
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Unless the vignetting is too bad you can also fix it in post. Take a brush and raise the exposure, paint across the edges that do vignette. It doesn't have to be too precise to be unnoticeable.

02-21-2015, 01:22 PM   #65
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
If Ricoh designs a solution that only can work with their own lenses (not sure how they could do that anyway) then quite a few folks won't be happy. Should I have written "lenses designed specifically for APS-C sized sensors"? Maybe so but it seems kind of wordy when we all know what we're talking about anyway.
The problem is, I don't think we do all know what we are talking about. There are some people who believe that, even when just talking about Pentax lenses, "DA and DA*" means "APS-C"!.

But those of us who have tried them on film cameras know that some of these are not just APS-C lenses, and some are only APS-C lenses at certain focal lengths.
02-21-2015, 01:47 PM - 1 Like   #66
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QuoteOriginally posted by Barry Pearson Quote
The problem is, I don't think we do all know what we are talking about. There are some people who believe that, even when just talking about Pentax lenses, "DA and DA*" means "APS-C"!.

But those of us who have tried them on film cameras know that some of these are not just APS-C lenses, and some are only APS-C lenses at certain focal lengths.
Andsome of the FA lens may very waell cover Medium Format. So? (I know, a bit provocative).
Ricoh will never let you implement different crops per lens per aperture per zoom setting, C'mon, stazy on earth.
They'll be the first to get it back in the face because way to cumbersome to use (by those who shouldn't use it probably) but they'd get it in their face.
They'll do On/Auto/Off, for sure. Probably more (1.2x?, I personnaly wish for square crop) but personnalized per lens is IMO a dream (for you) and a nightmare (for many users and Ricoh Support).
02-21-2015, 03:55 PM   #67
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The big issue here is, will the choice be 3rd party lenses with in lens Shake Reduction, or Pentax lenses using the in body SR. It's very likely the image circle for the Tamron 70-200 won't be big enough to implement SR on a Pentax FF. SO exactly how many third party lenses will this be true for? It's quite possible that the main mode of a Pentax FF with most FF lenses will be with SR turned off, except for those who can afford these very pricey lenses, like the Pentax 70-200, that have been designed to work with in body SR.

You also have to ask, is the current lack of support for Pentax by Sigma and Tamron because they were warned, that the image circle of many of their lenses will not have a big enough image circle for Pentax SR, and they just stopped making those lenses for Pentax. Speculation for sure, but makes more sense than a lot of the speculation I've heard. After all, in real numbers Pentax sales in Japan are higher than 2 years ago, so what else would explain the sudden lack of third party support?
02-21-2015, 04:14 PM   #68
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I can't understand the problem with SR & FF. If a bigger image circle is needed to account for the sensor movement involved in SR, then a bit more vignetting, and probably a bit more peripheral softness, will occur. So you either accept a bit more vignetting with the Sigma 70-200/F2.8 II and correct it in PP, you stop down a bit more to reduce it, or you turn SR off.

But it's not the end of the world. No great need to dump now cheap second-hand older FF lenses in favour of expensive new "Pentax FF-friendly" stuff.

Dan.


Last edited by dosdan; 02-21-2015 at 04:24 PM.
02-21-2015, 06:17 PM   #69
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I think one assumption that is being made here is that the user will thank Ricoh for DA lenses becoming operable as full frame lenses by default. I've been a Pentax user since I got a K20D in 2008, so I have bought all my lenses for their FOV on APS-C. If a new camera decides for me that my 40mm APS-C lens can be used as a FF lens, it would change the usage of that lens. I would then have to go into the menus to activate the crop factor to get my old FOV back. It would then be even more confusing if the camera decided my DA21 could not be used as FF. Personally, I think that DA lenses should work as APS-C lenses by default, because that is what they were sold as. Then if you want to use them as full frame lenses, you have to consciously activate it in the menu and you are responsible for any softness and vignetting you see in the corners. I think this behaviour would be acceptable to most people.

The problem with using some of these lenses as full frame is not that they won't fill the image circle. Many of them will, but that where's the achievement in that? It's the absolute minimum requirement for a lens. They also have to be acceptable at the edges. But even then, acceptable is not good enough. Pentax is a challenger to some very capable competing systems. They have to be better than the competition and if sample images come out of the new camera that call the quality of Pentax lenses into question, I think it will give ammunition to critics. That's why I think they should allow FF use of DA lenses only as an option that can be activated in the custom menu, like the use of pre-A lenses currently.
02-22-2015, 12:21 AM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by dosdan Quote
I can't understand the problem with SR & FF.
There is pretty much no problem to begin with.

As falconeye has posted multiple times, SR simply does not represent an issue for an FF sensor.
02-22-2015, 12:32 AM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote

You also have to ask, is the current lack of support for Pentax by Sigma and Tamron because they were warned, that the image circle of many of their lenses will not have a big enough image circle for Pentax SR, and they just stopped making those lenses for Pentax. Speculation for sure, but makes more sense than a lot of the speculation I've heard. After all, in real numbers Pentax sales in Japan are higher than 2 years ago, so what else would explain the sudden lack of third party support?
No way, their support vanished long before that and it was erratic even then.
02-22-2015, 02:18 AM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Heie Quote
To me, the perfect crop mode implementation would be as follows. Use a switch on the body somewhere, similar to the AF/MF switch on the K-3 (perhaps above it, where the RAW/FX button is? or add another layer to the locking slider under the mode dial?):
only instead of AF and MF, the options are "FA" and "DA"
There is a good case for making it "soft" so that it could be configured as a User Mode. In that case, I think there is an extra button on the left hand side of the mock-up which perhaps could optionally be used to toggle cropping.

(There is also a good case for making the camera switch cropping on and off by default according to the lens, which would probably suit most people. That too means it should be "soft" rather than controlled by a hard switch).
02-23-2015, 07:07 AM   #73
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I don't believe that there will be any big problems with pentax or thirdparty aps-c lenses not to leave FF lenses alone. It will be fine. Just that they have to be 100% sure of pentax FF lenses working 100% well with SR, makes this kind of statements. Let's say that FF lenses that you have will work with 97% with out (extra)vingetting with SR on, and 100% SR off. Would that be big problem? And what goes with DA lenses they just have to make them work out of box seamlessly with crop or possibility to use as FF lens with let's say, 99-85% coverage on your own risk on losing some image quality if any.

It would be just to let them off the hook. Right? Not a big deal when you know and get used to it.

��
02-23-2015, 10:16 AM   #74
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I think the "I want to use my lenses the way they were designed to be used crowd", will simply overjoyed with having to turn SR off to reliably frame their images, after all, those lenses were not designed for SR.

Since my 18-135 doesn't sufficiently cover the APS-c circle with SR on, and I deal with it on a regular basis, I can say without a shadow of doubt. I frame tight for maximum resolution in prints, I frame in the viewfinder rather than shooting to crop, and frequent and irregular vignetting because of SR is super annoying. I want in my print, exactly what I saw in my viewfinder. My K-3 will continue to be my camera of choice for action shots or hand held shots until such time as I can afford 3 grand for the bigger image circle of the D FA 70-200 on full frame.

Many of my landscapes and even some wildlife are taken with a 2 second delay, so for those, I already don't use SR and an old FF lens will do nicely. However, it's unlikely I'll ever actually buy an FF so it's all moot, although if it ever gets to be under $2k , at that point, hey, it's just another body in the regular upgrade cycle, not a drain on my life's savings.
02-23-2015, 10:21 AM   #75
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FF will not stay @ 2K.
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