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02-21-2015, 09:43 AM   #16
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
So to others. they think that the K-01 and the K-S1 are failures because they don't look as others might think is good, but they take good pics.
Had the K-01 or K-S1 (which were, frankly, production experiments for new technologies) been a sales success they wouldn't be the objects of derision they are today.

Both cameras had major design input from outside, industrial designers as Pentax tried intentionally to break free from the standard dSLR model to attract non-traditional buyers. That didn't work very well.

I think the K-S1 has more success than the K-01 did, but probably not enough to rescue its reputation. I'm one of the oddball K-01 lovers.

02-21-2015, 09:51 AM - 1 Like   #17
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
But before that happens, we must only pray Ricoh does not screw up this time like they did with K-01 and K-S1 and endless FF wait, endless TC wait, endless long zoom wait, etc. Which has cost them a lot, including significant drop in DSLR market share in the last 2 years.

Despite Sony visibly getting out of the DSLR market n the last 2+ years, which gives more room for expansion there, Ricoh has even managed to lower the Pentax DSLR share by 2% in that same time ... can anyone guess why?!
QuoteOriginally posted by Giklab Quote
*in Japan.
QuoteOriginally posted by MPrince Quote
Please provide a link to your source for this statement. I would like to know if the decline is 2 percent or 2 percentage points. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Edit: answered my own question. In another thread, Pentax is shown with a 7.5% share in 2012 (in Japan). Ricoh had a 4.5% share in 2015. That's a 3 percentage point drop, which is a 40% decline.
A thing that does concern me a lot. Those facts (if al that hard) mean that with Japan being 10 % of the market then the marketshare for Pentax with dslr outside of Japan is low as 1 % (and maybe a bit....)

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/137-photographic-industry-professionals/288709-pentax-marketshare-less-then-1 %.html
02-21-2015, 10:48 AM - 1 Like   #18
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By what kind of meaningfullness or representativity do all theses numbers speak ?
Isn't the "error margin" bigger than pentax's data themselves ?

Anyway, as stated by E.F. Schumacher : SMALL IS BEAUTIFULL

Last edited by Zygonyx; 02-21-2015 at 12:27 PM.
02-21-2015, 10:58 AM   #19
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I wish the new FF great success...although I think it is ugly, as shown. It could be dressed up with some nice machined metal dials and trim...maybe it will be?

Other than appearance, it will be judged on its abilities and performance.....a certain must in a crowded market. Which brings to mind the market? Other than the voices here, so often howling, where is the market for a Pentax FF camera? Although market conditions continue to improve in America, the rest of the world is somewhat lagging...or going backwards. This is not going to be a casual purchase, and before investing a lot of buyers are going to think hard before turning down or turning away from Nikon or Canon.
I am curious...where do you guys think the market is for this camera? After all, it will have to find a market to be a continued success.

I am not bashing Pentax in advance.....I truly love my Pentax gear, but reality does not always share my love.....or yours.

Regards!

02-21-2015, 11:17 AM   #20
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QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
Well, they do seem a bit slow in delivering, but then we're not aware of all the problems they have to solve. Good thing - we know they mean business (unlike Hoya); they wouldn't be launching the FF otherwise.
So true. It would've taken Ricoh a while to go through all the paperwork (especially with the electronics) when they acquired Pentax (which itself took a while to happen) and find a way to integrated it into their lineup/business. Plus they had to fix any issues that had came along with everything they acquired.

Now it seems that they have fixed a majority of those issues and now taking Pentax to that next level that people have been wanting them to go (i.e. releasing a FF camera, and FF lenses).

---------- Post added 02-21-15 at 11:22 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I wish the new FF great success...although I think it is ugly, as shown. It could be dressed up with some nice machined metal dials and trim...maybe it will be?

Other than appearance, it will be judged on its abilities and performance.....a certain must in a crowded market. Which brings to mind the market? Other than the voices here, so often howling, where is the market for a Pentax FF camera? Although market conditions continue to improve in America, the rest of the world is somewhat lagging...or going backwards. This is not going to be a casual purchase, and before investing a lot of buyers are going to think hard before turning down or turning away from Nikon or Canon.
I am curious...where do you guys think the market is for this camera? After all, it will have to find a market to be a continued success.

I am not bashing Pentax in advance.....I truly love my Pentax gear, but reality does not always share my love.....or yours.

Regards!

I think Pentax or someone else said it was a mockup of what their FF (can't remember, I think I read somewhere online). I'm pretty sure (ok, hoping) that it'll look way better when it's released.

Last edited by disconnekt; 02-21-2015 at 11:23 AM.
02-21-2015, 11:29 AM   #21
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I wish the new FF great success...although I think it is ugly, as shown. It could be dressed up with some nice machined metal dials and trim...maybe it will be?

Other than appearance, it will be judged on its abilities and performance.....a certain must in a crowded market. Which brings to mind the market? Other than the voices here, so often howling, where is the market for a Pentax FF camera? Although market conditions continue to improve in America, the rest of the world is somewhat lagging...or going backwards. This is not going to be a casual purchase, and before investing a lot of buyers are going to think hard before turning down or turning away from Nikon or Canon.
I am curious...where do you guys think the market is for this camera? After all, it will have to find a market to be a continued success.

I am not bashing Pentax in advance.....I truly love my Pentax gear, but reality does not always share my love.....or yours.

Regards!
I believe if the FF camera is great and the lenses are as hoped., then the market will be there. I have read enough messages in this and other forums from Pros who have switched from Canon to Nikon and the reverse because they found a particular camera to be the better tool. If Pentax produces a tool that is terrific for sports, wildlife and landscape along with its well appreciated ruggedness and weather resistence it will be a winner. The 645 rebirth is an example of what is possible.
02-21-2015, 11:45 AM   #22
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QuoteOriginally posted by bobell69 Quote
If Pentax produces a tool that is terrific for sports, wildlife and landscape along with its well appreciated ruggedness and weather resistence it will be a winner.
I can agree with that......if you will agree that "if" is a broadly encompassing word that is not always fulfilled. There are bound to be some shortcomings in the FF model, yet to be determined. If they are minor, and the overall results are very good, it could prod many to move up to the FF advantage......if there is an advantage for them.

I don't expect this camera to set the camera world on fire......but it would be very nice if it produced substantial amounts of heat!

Regards!
02-21-2015, 12:07 PM   #23
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I am curious...where do you guys think the market is for this camera? After all, it will have to find a market to be a continued success.
By their own statement, their market for this camera is:
  1. Existing Pentax users, especially those who have existing FF lenses
  2. Former Pentax users who may still have some old Pentax lenses
  3. Converts
New lenses will need to be enough better than old lenses to be worth buying (they will be - I'll be most of the old FF lenses will have artifacts and faults we don't see on APSc sensors).

02-21-2015, 12:24 PM - 1 Like   #24
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
DPReview gives a nod to the Pentax FF Big kudos to Richard Butler who mentioned the upcoming Pentax FF model at the "Gear Day" feature at CreativeLive! During this 1h feature, no Pentax/Ricoh was ever in sight (the table was filled with Canon, Nikon, Sony, Samsung, Fujifilm, and Olympus models), but at the very end -- when reviewers were asked which upcoming model they are most excited about -- Richard Butler gave a big nod to the Pentax FF model. He mentioned Pentax as a manufacturer of "photographer's cameras" with "well-positioned controls". DPReview receives a lot of flak from us, so this may be an opportunity to say "thanks" and drive up the popularity rating of their "CP+ 2015: Up close and personal with Ricoh's full-frame Pentax mockup" article by visiting it and leaving a positive comment.
I'm with you!
Since I've been with the forum, most mentions of DPReview hasn't been positive and according to your quote, the DPReview opinion of Pentax as a manufacturer of "photographer's cameras" goes to show how Ricoh is really making waves and gaining respect amongst peers. That statement implies "If you want a real pro camera, get a Pentax!" So I registered with them today to leave a reply. Now I'm off to shoot!

Good Day!

Last edited by Trudger1272; 02-21-2015 at 06:17 PM.
02-21-2015, 12:30 PM   #25
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
By their own statement, their market for this camera is:

Existing Pentax users, especially those who have existing FF lenses
Former Pentax users who may still have some old Pentax lenses
Converts
That's a small market but considering that Pentax is a small marketer anyhow, it may indeed be enough to sustain or increase marginal growth...or at least keep it from slipping backward. For those that truly need and/or desire a FF camera, this was a must do camera...although it took a long time to do it. I have no personal interest in a FF camera, being mostly a user of Toy Cameras, but I do enjoy what I see from other more advanced shooters and do look forward to viewing what they can do with a FF Pentax.

My own desire is in the other direction.... a Q that would draw me away from the other tiny cameras like my Fuji X cameras. I don't see that happening, but who knows? There is a market there too......small as it is becoming with the improvements in camera phones.

Regards!
02-21-2015, 01:02 PM   #26
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Had the K-01 or K-S1 (which were, frankly, production experiments for new technologies) been a sales success they wouldn't be the objects of derision they are today.

Both cameras had major design input from outside, industrial designers as Pentax tried intentionally to break free from the standard dSLR model to attract non-traditional buyers. That didn't work very well.

I think the K-S1 has more success than the K-01 did, but probably not enough to rescue its reputation. I'm one of the oddball K-01 lovers.
I wonder if any actual sales number of the K01 were ever shown. We all assume it was a disaster because reviews hated it and prices were slashed to unheard of cheapness. I only bought one because it included what is essentially the 40 Limited for less than the price of the 40 Limited. However I've never had a camera that generated more interest among my friends than the K01. I'm personally responsible for 5 K01 sales among friends and acquaintances. Some of them owned other brand dslrs, others just upgrading from point and shoots. One of which switched from a D800 and 2.8 zooms to a k01 and da Limited setup. I would not be surprised if the K01 project was actually pretty successful, maybe not profit wise but in bringing new people to the brand.
Its easy to get caught up in the PF, DPReview, internet forum view of the camera market, but I think the rest of the world has a very different perspective and probably represents much more of the market. If Pentax had the visibility of the big two the K01 would have been a big hit. It was well liked by design enthusiasts, hipsters, and in general people who want better cameras but don't care to look like pros or rich hobbyists. The goofy playskool look was by far its best asset.

The full frame is clearly targeted more towards serious, conservative types who want the maximum kit, and as such will not have much in common with the K01, but I hope the brand continues to defy expectations with its entry models. If the brand is to gain market share it needs to differentiate, not just with features but by appealing to a new generation of photographers. The next spotmatic will not look like a spotmatic but it will be fun, stylish, distinctive, and priced to attract students and trendsetters, not pros.

But this is the FF thread, so back to that. For those who buy good glass ie full frame shooters, cameras and especially lenses are a fairly liquid asset. I know for a fact that if I sold my lens collection I could recoup atleast 85% of my expense, some lenses have actually gone up in value. The cameras less so, but if someone wants to switch from Canon or Nikon the barrier is lower than it initially appears, that d700 will still sell for something. If Pentax makes a good offer that plays to their strengths(small,solid,ergonomic,versatile) people will buy it.
02-21-2015, 01:02 PM   #27
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
When Ricoh comes with more than a pile of plastic


Cheer up! Look on the bright side and as Class A reported - He mentioned Pentax as a manufacturer of "photographer's cameras" with "well-positioned controls".
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02-21-2015, 01:37 PM   #28
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rupert Quote
I can agree with that......if you will agree that "if" is a broadly encompassing word that is not always fulfilled. There are bound to be some shortcomings in the FF model, yet to be determined. If they are minor, and the overall results are very good, it could prod many to move up to the FF advantage......if there is an advantage for them.

I don't expect this camera to set the camera world on fire......but it would be very nice if it produced substantial amounts of heat!

Regards!
Yep, I agree.
02-21-2015, 03:16 PM   #29
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
No offense intended.
Oh I wasn't offended.
QuoteQuote:
What I meant was people moving from "selfie" to something more. The LED's can be used to see the count down when the shutter is going to fire. So if you are taking a group photo including yourself it gives a visual clue for everyone to show their best side at the right moment.
Yes, and I don't known when else the LEDs do anything, other than come on at power-up. Having them count down in that way could be useful, I suppose, but it's 45 years since the tripod I then owned was stolen, and I didn't use it much then. So quite some time since I might have taken a pic of myself using the delay. Hmmm, or did I take one in Yosemite in 1982?
02-21-2015, 04:33 PM   #30
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QuoteOriginally posted by MPrince Quote
Please provide a link to your source for this statement. I would like to know if the decline is 2 percent or 2 percentage points. There is a HUGE difference between the two.

Edit: answered my own question. In another thread, Pentax is shown with a 7.5% share in 2012 (in Japan). Ricoh had a 4.5% share in 2015. That's a 3 percentage point drop, which is a 40% decline.
Yes, that's the one.
It is in fact 3% for them, I apologise, which is some 3/7 of the market share lost. The relative shrinking of the DSLR market meant same fate for everybody, but even if their competitors are selling proportionally lower number of cameras (because the market shrank) Pentax under Ricoh's management in the last 2 years sold even less than what a shrank market would require. Their decline in market share was faster than market's trend. That also coincides with rapid FF DSLR development and strengthening of DSLR offer of their competitors, who now completely dominate the market. Pentax has totally lost any relevance in the DSLR market, and will continue unless those inept managers start to think straight.

So no wonder Pentax took a sharp dive. The trend won't slow down quickly. I bet that announcing the plastic FF with no specs at all — almost a year before it can be delivered — means that they were desperate to somewhat slow the descent. And in the meantime they pulled out K-S2, which indeed should have been introduced instead of the K-S1 nonsense in autumn. But they also completely screwed up that too — launched a toy with no real features at a crazy price before they launched a true value mid-range DSLR. And in the meantime, lowered the value of the K-3 to serve as both upper level and a real mid-level offer in heavily discounted kits. Which is .. I have no words for it.

It really hurts to see so much basic marketing incompetence one company can display in such a short time, in times when all actions must be totally coordinated, precise and no time wasted.

Last edited by Uluru; 02-21-2015 at 04:45 PM.
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