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02-23-2015, 01:26 AM   #61
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The only problem with Ricoh is they are giving us the toys we've been demanding at a rate that will leave us nothing to complain about soon!

02-23-2015, 04:06 AM   #62
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
Agreed.

However, can the same be said about the lenses?

For anyone putting high emphasis on compactness and/or weather-sealing, Pentax lenses may be good offerings. For others, the optical performance often does not appear to justify the prices which themselves do not appear to reflect the advantage of not needing to build in optical stabilisation into the lens, nor the lack of sophisticated AF ring motors.

Typically, initial price reactions by Pentaxians are responded to with a statement that prices will come down over time, but
  1. reviews judge the product based on the initial price tag. Respective categorisations do not change, even when the street price has become a pale shadow of the original price.
  2. price reductions do not appear to be that common with lenses (as opposed to bodies). Anyone correct me, if I'm wrong.
  3. I'd rather see Ricoh introducing products with a reasonable price straight away and then keep the price constant over the product's lifetime. This would help initial sales and also avoid perceived (and real) depreciation.
I guess I am not good at figuring out pricing. When a magazine like Outdoor Photographer reviews gear, they usually will post a "street price" with it, which is often lower than the release price. I think most smart consumers won't focus on price listed in a review, as it may be pretty out of date by the time they read the review.

To me, if Pentax wants to get good reviews, the biggest thing they need to fix is video. It isn't that I shoot much video with my SLRs, I don't. But that seems to be the biggest thing that is picked up on as a negative in reviews of Pentax cameras these days.

For whatever reason, in body image stabilization isn't as big a positive in reviews as I think it should be.

And stuff like "lack of lens line up" is bound to appear, particularly with the new full frame camera.

I just don't think you can build a camera just to make reviewers happy. Pentax makes good photographers cameras and that is good enough for me.
02-23-2015, 04:23 AM - 2 Likes   #63
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QuoteOriginally posted by robjmitchell Quote
The only problem with Ricoh is they are giving us the toys we've been demanding at a rate that will leave us nothing to complain about soon!
You have no faith in Pentax Forums.
02-23-2015, 05:25 AM   #64
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Have you done an actual comparison to verify your hunch? For Canon and Nikon, many users get by with Tamron and/or Sigma lenses, because the OEM lenses are so incredibly expensive.
The OEM lens prices are what new Pentax lens prices are compared with, arguing that they are not expensive, but comparable in price (not acknowledging that said OEM lenses have much better AF motors, have optical image stabilisation (which I don't want, but shouldn't be paying for in a Pentax lens), and that Canikon can basically charge whatever they want, given their market position).

BTW, I do not agree that "users get by" with third-party lenses. Some Sigma lenses beat Canikon in terms of optical performance and the value for money proposition is almost always much better in any event.

When you compare the price of the new Pentax 70-200/2.8 to Canikon and Sigma, you'll see that it is comparable to Canikon, and that the Sigma lens is considerably cheaper (even though it has optical image stabilisation). We'll have to wait and see what the optical performance of the Pentax 70-200/2.8 will be. While I very much doubt it will be as controversial as that of the DA 20-40, for instance, I'm also sceptical that it will be justifying its price differential against the Sigma through optical performance.

02-23-2015, 05:34 AM   #65
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Third party lenses are cheaper due to the fact of questionable future compartibility. Sigma's new usb dock is an answer to this, but i would prefer a usb input to the lens like metz flashes.
02-23-2015, 05:35 AM   #66
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The Sigma 70-200 is OK for its price, but it's by no means extraordinary.
02-23-2015, 05:35 AM   #67
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I just don't think you can build a camera just to make reviewers happy. Pentax makes good photographers cameras and that is good enough for me.
It is good enough for me as well, but if Pentax continuous to only convince a small minority of photographers, the revenue may become too small at some point in the future.

In order to keep the camera/lens business going, Pentax must also convince reviewers so that the customer base can grow, or at least not further shrink. Smart customers do whatever they feel is right anyhow, but I believe there is a good chunk of people that trust reviews and go with the highest recommendations. It is just unnecessary to give DPReview an excuse to rate a D7100 higher than a K-3 in the "value" rating, based on introduction prices.
02-23-2015, 10:24 AM   #68
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Better motors? As for the new lenses, we do NOT know that AFAICT.

02-23-2015, 11:51 AM   #69
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Pentax makes good photographers cameras and that is good enough for me.
Sig-worthy Reply.
02-23-2015, 08:44 PM   #70
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
In order to keep the camera/lens business going, Pentax must also convince reviewers so that the customer base can grow, or at least not further shrink. Smart customers do whatever they feel is right anyhow, but I believe there is a good chunk of people that trust reviews and go with the highest recommendations. It is just unnecessary to give DPReview an excuse to rate a D7100 higher than a K-3 in the "value" rating, based on introduction prices.
This FF announcement was the first step ever made by Pentax brand, aimed directly at its own userbase, to consolidate it. To gather those people, and not scatter them away. First crop cameras were departure from the film userbase, Hoya did nothing to gather userbase again, Ricoh did not do enough in time to keep the remaining userbase from scattering again. Pentax, then Hoya, then Ricoh, sent signals full of confusion and reject of user's wishes. They have been paid for it, severely.

This is the first ever try to do the right thing, now when the market share of the brand is the smallest ever. Ricoh, and Hoya and Pentax before, never learned anything from Nikon's faults in 1990s and early 2000's, when Nikon scared their own userbase — quite literally — by saying there may never be a digital FF. Nikon simply was too arrogant to think is user's terms. As a result, Nikon's share in pro market halved! (And in photography business, pro-market drives the sales of amateur market). And guess who got those users? Canon. Canon is the only imaging company doing things right, because they never scare nor scatter their users to look for solutions elsewhere. And that is Canon's secret for success. Now when Nikon delivers 36MP sensors for their system, and MF offers 50+ MPs, Canon works on a new FF chip to deliver 50 MPs. "You want more than 30 MPs dear user of ours? No need to buy Nikon. No need to buy Pentax 645. Now you have the Canon camera." Problem solved. Users retained.

On the other side, Pentax engineers, constantly crippled and dumbed by short-sighted management, must do the miracle. They must deliver something that exceeds their peers, and at a cost that rival them, or betters them. A call for Hail Mary Pass, again, to score an impossible in the last second of the game. A miracle. Previously Pentax was hoping for it, now Ricoh too.

But to me, the true miracle is not the FF, but the waking up of the Ricoh. A bucked of ice cold water splashed RIcoh's self-confidence in the last few months. Now they beg for attention. And it will be given, but under the condition they really deliver, and they really invest in Pentax with real money this time. Because this company has finally decided to correct the major flaw that was never rectified and was causing erosion across decades.

---------- Post added 02-24-2015 at 03:11 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Sig-worthy Reply.
And I thought to include in sig a very detailed reply of yours, of some time ago, in which you deliberated that for the successful FF announcement, Ricoh must first conquer at least 10% of the market. And not to halve whatever it got before that 10%.

Last edited by Uluru; 02-23-2015 at 09:13 PM.
02-23-2015, 10:41 PM   #71
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Canon is the only imaging company doing things right, because they never scare nor scatter their users to look for solutions elsewhere. )
Taking revisionist history to new highs, lows, whatever.
02-23-2015, 10:54 PM   #72
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QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Canon is the only imaging company doing things right, because they never scare nor scatter their users to look for solutions elsewhere
RIGHT. So we are supposed to ignore the fiasco 4 years ago when Nikon released two cameras that clearly were (and in a few ways still are) superior to anything that Canon had on offer at the time, and only now is Canon trying to recover some of its user base from.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
Canon works on a new FF chip to deliver 50 MPs. "You want more than 30 MPs dear user of ours? No need to buy Nikon. No need to buy Pentax 645. Now you have the Canon camera." Problem solved.
The problem here is that the users are still going to realize there is a difference between 35mm and medium format that goes beyond the MP count. Canon have said themselves in a statement about the new cameras that Medium format is still ahead of 35mm in terms of ultimate image quality. Just like old times.
02-24-2015, 04:42 AM - 3 Likes   #73
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Now, granted we are all here to speculate a bit and reliable facts about the camera market and Ricoh can be hard to come by. But these absolutist pronouncements and wild speculations get pretty tiresome. We all know you don't actually know anything, right? And have zero connection and inside information to any camera company. (Which would might be OK except when you actually start trashing someone else with actual facts and information see here for e.g.)

So Zvonimir, how is it you now know what Ricoh's motivation is, or that of any other company, with so much certainty, that it's had a wake up call and is now deciding to invest? The vacuum of information about what is going on doesn't doesn't make this attempt to psychoanalyze the company, in lieu of actual facts, believable. It is basically a hypothesis that can't be disproven, which means what? Your current bender of skepticism about the company is to be taken as a matter of faith?

Maybe Adam can start up a Ricoh/Pentax fan fiction forum for such posts? It's really neither news nor rumours.

QuoteOriginally posted by Uluru Quote
This FF announcement was the first step ever made by Pentax brand, aimed directly at its own userbase, to consolidate it. To gather those people, and not scatter them away. First crop cameras were departure from the film userbase, Hoya did nothing to gather userbase again, Ricoh did not do enough in time to keep the remaining userbase from scattering again. Pentax, then Hoya, then Ricoh, sent signals full of confusion and reject of user's wishes. They have been paid for it, severely.

This is the first ever try to do the right thing, now when the market share of the brand is the smallest ever. Ricoh, and Hoya and Pentax before, never learned anything from Nikon's faults in 1990s and early 2000's, when Nikon scared their own userbase quite literally by saying there may never be a digital FF. Nikon simply was too arrogant to think is user's terms. As a result, Nikon's share in pro market halved! (And in photography business, pro-market drives the sales of amateur market). And guess who got those users? Canon. Canon is the only imaging company doing things right, because they never scare nor scatter their users to look for solutions elsewhere. And that is Canon's secret for success. Now when Nikon delivers 36MP sensors for their system, and MF offers 50+ MPs, Canon works on a new FF chip to deliver 50 MPs. "You want more than 30 MPs dear user of ours? No need to buy Nikon. No need to buy Pentax 645. Now you have the Canon camera." Problem solved. Users retained.

On the other side, Pentax engineers, constantly crippled and dumbed by short-sighted management, must do the miracle. They must deliver something that exceeds their peers, and at a cost that rival them, or betters them. A call for Hail Mary Pass, again, to score an impossible in the last second of the game. A miracle. Previously Pentax was hoping for it, now Ricoh too.

But to me, the true miracle is not the FF, but the waking up of the Ricoh. A bucked of ice cold water splashed RIcoh's self-confidence in the last few months. Now they beg for attention. And it will be given, but under the condition they really deliver, and they really invest in Pentax with real money this time. Because this company has finally decided to correct the major flaw that was never rectified and was causing erosion across decades.

---------- Post added 02-24-2015 at 03:11 PM ----------



And I thought to include in sig a very detailed reply of yours, of some time ago, in which you deliberated that for the successful FF announcement, Ricoh must first conquer at least 10% of the market. And not to halve whatever it got before that 10%.
02-24-2015, 04:48 AM   #74
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+1 for the Ricoh/Pentax fan fiction forum!
02-24-2015, 05:01 AM   #75
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rico Quote
How did Pentax mess up with the K-01 and K-S1?

I own the K-01 and it has been a great asset for me. It is a shame Pentax hasn't developed the concept further.

And the K-S1 in my opinion is brilliant move on Pentax's part to appeal to the target audience it was intended for primarily the "Selfie" generation.
umm... Only speaking for myself here, but I have mixed feelings toward my own K-01. I like it, but some days I like it more than other days. The lack of a viewfinder can be a problem outdoors on bright, sunny days (unless I use a loupe, which works but is a nuisance). Autofocus is very slow and noisy with some lenses. Focus peaking is too indiscriminate. Images with very saturated colors (such as flowers) can inexplicably posterize and lose detail, which I haven't seen with my other cameras. I hope Pentax will do another mirrorless K-mount camera someday, because I know they can improve upon this.

As for the K-S1. . . From the recent interview: "With the K-S1 we tried to attract non-Pentax users mainly. In that sense we had a very nice challenge, but for that, so far, we couldn't get the return we expected."

Compared with the usually bland and restrained language of interviews, that sounds to me like a corporate cry of pain.
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