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02-24-2015, 01:43 PM   #91
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People need to realise that there is both profitable and unprofitable portions of the market. If Ricoh has lost market share in the unprofitable market while gaining market share in the profitable portion then this is a very very good thing!

---------- Post added 02-25-2015 at 07:44 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pentax is in fact THE mirror company among the camera manufacturers. They made the first japanese reflex camera and didn't make a camera without a mirror until well into the 80's. Why anyone whould expect them to be leading in mirrorless, and why, is beyond me...
Because the mirrorless black hole must consume everything!

02-24-2015, 01:46 PM   #92
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
The fact that Pentax has lost market share over the past few years is definitely bad news. People that claim that it doesn't matter has rose colored glasses. It means less product in stores, less third party support and greater risk if Ricoh dropping the product line altogether.

However, a temporary loss in marketshare is probably not that bad in the long run, if Ricoh has put their ducks in a row and starts releasing great products AND GETS THOSE PRODUCTS IN FRONT OF CONSUMERS.
They have to get serious about regions outside of Japan. I think this Fullframe and updated lens roadmap with very intriguing lenses is a great leap forward into capturing market share.

Of course, it only matters if consumers are aware that these great new products exist, outside of tiny Pentaxforums.com
Pentax may be loosing marked share but they are gaining user base; it is increasing with every sale. FF won't change Pentax share significantly. Canons share is due to all the Rebels and very successful 7d they are pouring out....
02-24-2015, 02:23 PM   #93
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pentax is in fact THE mirror company among the camera manufacturers. They made the first japanese reflex camera and didn't make a camera without a mirror until well into the 80's. Why anyone whould expect them to be leading in mirrorless, and why, is beyond me...
Because Pentax is all about compactness? In fact, Pentax values compactness so much, that they are even willing to sacrifice valuable speed to make their lenses smaller. Sacrificing a mirror for that same compactness doesn't seem all that drastic then, considering the missing mirror doesn't affect the imaging process, whilst the missing F-stops most certainly do.

Last edited by Clavius; 02-25-2015 at 04:57 AM.
02-24-2015, 02:31 PM   #94
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Pentax may be loosing marked share but they are gaining user base; it is increasing with every sale.
I don't follow your logic...
Pentax has less market share than they did a few years ago...in a declining market, which is doubly bad.
If they lose 2 customers, but gain one, that is not "gaining user base".
Taking their current trend to the end leads to zero customers (of course that is true of all DSLR manufacturers since they are fighting over a smaller and smaller pie).

02-24-2015, 02:38 PM   #95
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I don't follow your logic...
Pentax has less market share than they did a few years ago...in a declining market, which is doubly bad.
If they lose 2 customers, but gain one, that is not "gaining user base".
I guess the question is (and I don't know the answer) if Pentax users are different from the users of other brands? Do they buy more lenses and higher priced gear? If the majority of Canon users purchase an entry level with a kit lens and never buy any more gear till their camera gives up the ghost, Canon doesn't make much money on them. If Sony sells a bunch of camera bodies and then their users buy adapters and mostly mount non-e mount lenses, then once again, they aren't maximizing their profit.

My feeling is that Pentaxians do buy more additional lenses, but as I say that is just a feeling and mostly based on forum interactions.
02-24-2015, 02:44 PM - 2 Likes   #96
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I don't follow your logic...
Pentax has less market share than they did a few years ago...in a declining market, which is doubly bad.
If they lose 2 customers, but gain one, that is not "gaining user base".
Taking their current trend to the end leads to zero customers (of course that is true of all DSLR manufacturers since they are fighting over a smaller and smaller pie).
First, in this discussion we assume Pentax has lost market share. There is considerable doubt about the validity of the referenced surveys since they do not represent all retailers. Other posts and threads suggest Pentax marlet share in Japan, including Q, of final interchangebale lens cameras is around 8.9%, which is nearly twice five years ago.

Second, the specific period in question was the very peak of Canon and Nikon overproduction and involuntary inventory build. In the spring of 2013 Pentax made an affirmative decision to intentionally SLOW PRODUCTION in the face of the coming - they correctly anticipated - sales collapse. Calling their loss of market share at the retail end of the chain, under these circumstances during which Canon and Nikon massively liquidated overstocks, is at best ill-informed and at worst intentional FUD.*


* Not saying you called anything - but the assertion is oversimplified, based on incomplete sales data and gives an incorrect impression.

Last edited by monochrome; 02-25-2015 at 04:14 AM.
02-24-2015, 02:46 PM   #97
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I don't follow your logic...
Pentax has less market share than they did a few years ago...in a declining market, which is doubly bad.
If they lose 2 customers, but gain one, that is not "gaining user base".
Taking their current trend to the end leads to zero customers (of course that is true of all DSLR manufacturers since they are fighting over a smaller and smaller pie).
The ones who do not buy your camera this year may use the one from last. People who switch brands do not throw their old cameras and lenses in the bin; usually they will be sold to someone else. The user base are on the increase and they are all potential customers for future models....
02-24-2015, 02:50 PM   #98
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I guess the question is (and I don't know the answer) if Pentax users are different from the users of other brands? Do they buy more lenses and higher priced gear? If the majority of Canon users purchase an entry level with a kit lens and never buy any more gear till their camera gives up the ghost, Canon doesn't make much money on them. If Sony sells a bunch of camera bodies and then their users buy adapters and mostly mount non-e mount lenses, then once again, they aren't maximizing their profit.

My feeling is that Pentaxians do buy more additional lenses, but as I say that is just a feeling and mostly based on forum interactions.
My feeling is Pentax users are as "frugal" as other brands. There are still a lot of people clamoring for an aperture feeler arm so they can mount their 40 year old lenses and won't buy a camera over $2,000USD.
But who really knows, it would be pure speculation.
People on internet fora tend to be more passionate and buy more gear than the average shooter that is perfectly happy with their 1.5 lenses.

---------- Post added 02-24-15 at 01:54 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
The ones who do not buy your camera this year may use the one from last. People who switch brands do not throw their old cameras and lenses in the bin; usually they will be sold to someone else. The user base are on the increase and they are all potential customers for future models....
Yes, but that is true of all brands...not just Pentax.

02-24-2015, 03:49 PM - 1 Like   #99
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
It serves DPR to bait us - we always respond with Clicks.

Just. Stop. Clicking.
Wrong advice, AFAIC.

Following your advice would be ignoring the influence DPReview has on purchasing decisions. It suggests that the best way to deal with DPReview is to ignore them. I disagree, for the following reasons:

Not contributing to traffic on Pentax-related topics would just be proving DPReview right in their opinion that Pentax isn't worth writing about.

If we -- by visiting and engaging with Pentax-related news articles or polls -- can demonstrate that there is a lot of interest for Pentax-related articles then DPReview cannot play the "Not enough people care about Pentax to warrant better coverage or speedier reviews"-card.

Better treatment of Pentax by DPReview would be good to attract new Pentaxians. Most people who have not made up their mind yet, go to a non-brand-specific site like DPReview to get their information. Better Pentax coverage would result in more sales and thus benefit all Pentaxians.

Once people have become Pentaxians, they will of course use pentaxforums.com rather than DPReview, so PF also wins.

Hence my proposal to let them know that Pentax is still relevant by engaging with Pentax-related content.
02-24-2015, 03:53 PM - 1 Like   #100
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I just looked at the latest IR presentations for Ricoh, Canon and Nikon. I'm no expert but it looks like they are all reporting lower revenue to some degree or other. Canon and Nikon specifically report on sales revenue for ILC cameras. Canon seems to be 17% down on the year before. Nikon seems to be about 9% down. Ricoh reports only on their "other" segment, but in the latest information, it is referred to as "other (digital cameras)", so I would assume it is mostly cameras. It's sales are 1% down. I'm not a numbers person, but it looks to me like Ricoh is in fact gaining market share, albeit in a shrinking market.

In their interview with PF at CP+, Saiki-san said "As you know the market itself been has really drastically decreasing. We are faced with that trouble but we are safer than the total market trend." That would appear to be consistent with the information I just saw.

I'm not saying that these figures offer a perfectly accurate picture of sales, but they are more comprehensive than the other "data" being paraded here. Also consider that Ricoh is about to release products that address a segment of the market they had not previously been able to compete in. I see absolutely no reason for pessimism.

Last edited by JPT; 02-24-2015 at 04:03 PM.
02-24-2015, 05:05 PM   #101
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I don't honestly know why everyone frets so, unless they own stock in Ricoh (I wonder how many folks here do. I might in a mutual fund. Hard to say...) Clearly Ricoh sees an opportunity, which is why they are releasing the coming full frame camera. To this point, with the possible exception of the K-S1, they have been pretty wise in their decisions. I see no reason to think they don't know the market better than I do and it seems clear that they would rather see slow, gradual growth than anything else. Fill in the cracks in the line up, price the gear at the prices they want (low for bodies, high for glass) and good things will happen.

As to DP Review, I got frustrated with them long ago. It has always felt like they strained to find fault with Pentax cameras. Always bringing up lack of a complete lens line up, or giving faint hearted praise "a good camera if you are invested in the k mount," while ignoring strengths like sealing, in body shake reduction, etc. Maybe beating them up constantly with comments helps, but in my experience, they just delete comments and/or suspend folks who don't appreciate their wonderfulness.
02-24-2015, 06:00 PM   #102
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
I don't follow your logic...
Pentax has less market share than they did a few years ago...in a declining market, which is doubly bad.
If they lose 2 customers, but gain one, that is not "gaining user base".
Taking their current trend to the end leads to zero customers (of course that is true of all DSLR manufacturers since they are fighting over a smaller and smaller pie).
Do you throw your camera away every year?
02-24-2015, 06:10 PM   #103
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Percentage of the market is a bit of a misleading statistic. Did total unit sales go up or down? Did the number of Ricoh/Pentax camera units sold go up or down? That is what is important. The whole camera market is in a state of flux and trying to accurately predict the future is more important now than ever before.

I think that Pentax has done well under Ricoh, DPReview giving them a nod is a very good thing. The Pentax DSLR may just be the biggest news in the market this year. Finally getting a full frame on the market may get them lots of press and I think that the reviewers will like to get their hands on something really new.
02-24-2015, 06:53 PM - 1 Like   #104
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mistral75 Quote
In Japan indeed but Ricoh representatives said at CP+ that they are selling more ILCs in Japan than in the rest of the world.
Yes,that´s right and the new fullframe body will be available at first in japan and europe,approx. October.
Best regards
02-25-2015, 06:29 AM   #105
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QuoteOriginally posted by asahi man Quote
Yes,that´s right and the new fullframe body will be available at first in japan and europe,approx. October.
Best regards
Mmm *starts saving *
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