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03-15-2015, 05:12 AM   #121
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
When the resolution, refresh rate, DR, & color range and accuracy of the EVF exceeds what the human eye can perceive what would be the advantage of the OVF? Its all about a humans ability to perceive scene. Some people prefer range finder cameras and at one point they dominated. I think OVF DSLR will be a niche like the range finder.
Optics are not going the way of the dodo. Optical finders will forever be no.1 choice for photographers. Photographers previsualize their image in their mind; the finder is a aiming and composition device. Nothing beats the real thing.

03-15-2015, 05:32 AM   #122
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I spend about 1/2 my time online reading PentaxForums and the other half reading a Sony forum. In the last 3 years, i don't recall having read even one complaint about the usability of EVFs on Sony forums. Yet on this forum, there are these frequent concerns about EVFs and statements that perhaps in 5 years in the future, EVFs might be usable.

Some of the posters on the Sony forum are ex-Nikon users, ex-Canon users, etc. Even they don't complain about EVFs. I've spent the last 1/2 hour switching between my K3 and my Nex cameras, trying to figure what, if anything, is objectionable about EVFs. I do like the clarity of the K3 OVF, but on the other hand, my EVFs have features that my OVF can't duplicate. For the shooting i do, EVFs are better overall.

I suspect that some of the complainers about EVFs, haven't tried one recently (recently being in the last 2 years or so). If thats the case, please be honest with the rest of us and let us know if you are commenting on EVFs without having any recent hardware experience. Again, it seems really odd to me that on camera forums where EVFs are used all the time, that folks don't complain about this feature. Really really odd
Well, yes, I just tried Xt1 and Oly EM1, EM5-II just last weekend.
Did it change my opinion? Actually yes: I thought Olys were among the best but the XT1 kills them.
As for the possibility to replace an OVF? Nope. Not a proper one (DSLR/TLR).
Now, of course, compared to OVF built into most AF compacts from past decades, I'll take the EVF. I mean, a proper EVF. Of course.

As for details which can be added on an EVF, it is very useful for those who need that. Personally, overtime there's something over the image, it is a PITA. On a second screen, up or down, why not. Even microprisms in an OVF is necessary evil, blank screen maybe with rule of thirds is the only thing I can tolerate as well as little helps which eat very little on the side of the image (MX speed dial, Pentax speed/aperture from Z era etc). Anything else is a PITA. And if EVF become as good as OVF, mine will NEVER show anything over the image.
03-15-2015, 08:24 AM - 1 Like   #123
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I spend about 1/2 my time online reading PentaxForums and the other half reading a Sony forum. In the last 3 years, i don't recall having read even one complaint about the usability of EVFs on Sony forums. Yet on this forum, there are these frequent concerns about EVFs and statements that perhaps in 5 years in the future, EVFs might be usable.

Some of the posters on the Sony forum are ex-Nikon users, ex-Canon users, etc. Even they don't complain about EVFs. I've spent the last 1/2 hour switching between my K3 and my Nex cameras, trying to figure what, if anything, is objectionable about EVFs. I do like the clarity of the K3 OVF, but on the other hand, my EVFs have features that my OVF can't duplicate. For the shooting i do, EVFs are better overall.

I suspect that some of the complainers about EVFs, haven't tried one recently (recently being in the last 2 years or so). If thats the case, please be honest with the rest of us and let us know if you are commenting on EVFs without having any recent hardware experience. Again, it seems really odd to me that on camera forums where EVFs are used all the time, that folks don't complain about this feature. Really really odd
It depends on what you shoot, in what conditions. Sometimes I use the live view screen to nail perfect focus on far away not moving subjects. That is rare however, usually I'm struggling to follow or find the subject in the viewfinder. Someone made the point that a full frame with the large viewfinder allows you to see more and hence capture more. All the advantages of an evf are in fact disadvantages for me; just clutter and delay getting in the way of a challenging task.

There is no possible sale for me. With a diminishing market there will be more specialization where your needs will be meet by one product and mine by another. I don't want to hear a sales pitch for a great street camera when I don't shoot that style. Nor do you want to hear a sales pitch for a great wildlife body lens combination that weighs 10 pounds. With a very bright uncluttered ovf.

Of course you would find in the Sony forums people who find the evf to be an advantage. Here you find people who find an ovf to be an advantage. Someone who gets dizzy and uncomfortable with an evf won't buy one and frequent the Sony forums.
03-15-2015, 06:39 PM - 1 Like   #124
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
If EVF is the actual future Ricoh will eventually use an EVF, or at least have some options. Until that time it seems Ricoh intends to remain a bit more traditional, which is a business decision. I don't need an EVF. I don't want one.
Ricoh was one of the first companies to introduce EVF in the GXR .. in fact nothing about the whole GXR concept was traditional. Probably the only negative for me from Ricoh buying Pentax is that they decided to abandon the GXR system. I guess this was the correct business decision

03-15-2015, 07:51 PM   #125
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pål Jensen Quote
Optics are not going the way of the dodo. Optical finders will forever be no.1 choice for photographers. Photographers previsualize their image in their mind; the finder is a aiming and composition device. Nothing beats the real thing.
Optical finders will always be the no. 1 choice for SOME photographers. There are professional photographers today who use mirrorless for professional work, so obviously the OVF is not a must have feature for a large number of photographers.

Brian Smith Miami Florida Celebrity Portrait Photographer Brian Smith Uses Sony exclusively - professionally.
Trey Ratcliff Stuck In Customs | HDR Photography, Travel Photography and Camera Reviews - Using Sony A7r professionally
Zack Arias DEDPXL · More Signal. Less Noise. using Fuji
Sam Burton Sam Burton Photography Fuji
Don Craig DON CRAIG photography Fuji

I could make a pretty long list of the high profile photographers who have switched to mirrorless (EVF) for their professional work. They are still a minority, but the system and the EVF is more than capable.
03-15-2015, 08:56 PM   #126
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Optical finders will always be the no. 1 choice for SOME photographers. There are professional photographers today who use mirrorless for professional work, so obviously the OVF is not a must have feature for a large number of photographers.

Brian Smith Miami Florida Celebrity Portrait Photographer Brian Smith Uses Sony exclusively - professionally.
Trey Ratcliff Stuck In Customs | HDR Photography, Travel Photography and Camera Reviews - Using Sony A7r professionally
Zack Arias DEDPXL · More Signal. Less Noise. using Fuji
Sam Burton Sam Burton Photography Fuji
Don Craig DON CRAIG photography Fuji

I could make a pretty long list of the high profile photographers who have switched to mirrorless (EVF) for their professional work. They are still a minority, but the system and the EVF is more than capable.
Well said Winder! I've read that there is not a single video cam out there employing an optical VF. If its ok for optical cams, It should be OK for still cameras.
03-15-2015, 11:29 PM   #127
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And there are violinists and musicians who are blind, yet they play music too — they need nothing to see.
There are photographers who still look at image upside down, in their LF view cameras.

Who really cares who uses what today? I don't care what Arias uses. Nor Meyerowitz. Nor Hogan. What is boring in all this is that some people come and drum about "mirrorless is the future", which is downright boring in a forum about Pentax, a company which established all the virtues of the pentaprism.

Get over it!

It is same as to come in France, in the region of Champagne, and extoll virtues of Californian white and endlessly cry doom over the French cellars.
It is beyond boring. It is impolite and boring and uneducated.

Just. Be. Gone. Mirrorless. Brats.
03-16-2015, 02:02 AM   #128
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QuoteOriginally posted by philbaum Quote
I suspect that some of the complainers about EVFs, haven't tried one recently (recently being in the last 2 years or so). If thats the case, please be honest with the rest of us and let us know if you are commenting on EVFs without having any recent hardware experience. Again, it seems really odd to me that on camera forums where EVFs are used all the time, that folks don't complain about this feature. Really really odd
Give them some credit. The people around here are much smarter then to complain about things they don't know enough about. In their minds, a mirrorless Pentax could mean the end of the K-mount. Therefore, per default Pentaxians with their cabinets full of "legacy glass" need to be firmly against such technological advances.

03-16-2015, 02:10 AM   #129
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Not sure why this thread turned to OVF vs EVF flame war, but back to the interview, most of it was obvious from what was anonunced before, but here's one piece I find very entertaning (about the Z):

"they're selling numbers that they never expected, and some of the demand comes from professionals, but some comes from people who want to look like professionals."

Now, if I ever spot somebody with a 645Z in the wild I'll be trying to guess: Is this guy ia real pro or just wants to look like one ??? - somehow I think it will be easy to spot the differnece
03-16-2015, 02:44 AM   #130
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QuoteOriginally posted by npc Quote
Now, if I ever spot somebody with a 645Z in the wild I'll be trying to guess: Is this guy ia real pro or just wants to look like one ??? - somehow I think it will be easy to spot the differnece
It's a pity the 645Z doesn't have a popup flash, THEN it would have been easy
03-16-2015, 02:52 AM   #131
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QuoteOriginally posted by Clavius Quote
Give them some credit. The people around here are much smarter then to complain about things they don't know enough about. In their minds, a mirrorless Pentax could mean the end of the K-mount. Therefore, per default Pentaxians with their cabinets full of "legacy glass" need to be firmly against such technological advances.
I think you are right. EVF for Pentax probably means new mount as well. Still with the ability to use k mount via adapter, but with the kludge factor that that entails. I still think the K-01 could be fleshed out, improve its functionality with PDAF on the sensor, and an EVF and keep the k mount. I bet it would sell pretty decently if priced right.

I think people fall into three camps with EVF versus OVF. Some are really polarized in favor of either OVF or, EVF, but I think the majority don't care terribly much. They will get the camera they want, with the features they want/need and deal with the viewfinder that it has. I don't really know anyone (except for the traditionalists here on the forum) who would make a decision whether or not to buy a camera based on its viewfinder. It may be a factor, but it is pretty far down the list.
03-16-2015, 02:52 AM   #132
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QuoteOriginally posted by gazonk Quote
It's a pity the 645Z doesn't have a popup flash, THEN it would have been easy
Look for the 645Z with a lens hood on backwards.
03-16-2015, 03:19 AM   #133
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As for a new mount... if anything it should be an updated K mount. And adapter... what if it isn't round, but one that slides over the front of the camera? Imagine a K-50 or K-3 without a mirror box. Much flatter around the mount. When you want to use an older lens, just slide the adapter over the mount area, and it looks like a K-50 or K-3. The adapter has a motor for screw drive lenses (the new mount requires a motor in the lens).

They can still release and make new DSLR lenses, and only offer mirrorless alternatives where it makes a difference. And offer some lenses where it doesn't with a user replaceable mount... basically an adapter that you screw on the lens.
03-16-2015, 03:25 AM   #134
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Geez it's time for an admin to give a couple warnings...
03-16-2015, 03:29 AM   #135
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Geez it's time for an admin to give a couple warnings...
The problem is that there isn't anything much in the DP Review article to talk about. It is just a rehash of other stuff already known for quite awhile.
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