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04-17-2015, 12:17 PM   #256
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"When we make sensors we put them in several categories. [At any given time] one category of sensors is reserved purely for Sony cameras - we don’t sell them to other companies. Like the sensor in the A7S. But once we’ve enjoyed this advantage we might sell them on later, after some time has passed. This is the second category. The third category of sensors is completely generic - the sensors are created for use internally and to sell externally, to anybody. China or Taiwan or wherever."

The question is, will Ricoh buy the most expensive, best sensor Sony makes available or opt for a slightly older but somewhat less expensive technology?

04-17-2015, 12:33 PM   #257
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They must be competitive, so they must be at the same level - or even better - than the D7200. So they must integrate the same sensor...
04-17-2015, 12:35 PM   #258
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The older sensor would be the current one
04-17-2015, 12:55 PM   #259
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
There's no ambiguity here. Sony keeps the best of the best for themselves, to give them "an advantage" against competition. The other camera brands buy these "best of the best" after some time have passed from their release within Sony bodies. The less qualitative sensors are sold to everyone, as soon as they become available.
This is the reason I don't get excited when they announce a spanking new sensor, because it never makes into a Ricoh body, not at the beginning.
How does the one in 645Z fit into this scheme?

04-17-2015, 01:05 PM   #260
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It doesn't and Sony is not the only company to produce sensors so they have also to stay ahead of the competition and release those. Anyway if it's in a Nikon, it could be in a Pentax.
04-17-2015, 01:06 PM   #261
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QuoteOriginally posted by WillWeaverRVA Quote
So it's more or less this (using current models):

645Z
(Pentax FF camera)
K-3
K-S2
K-S1?
GR
Q7 (or Q-S1?)
In doing research for a thread on another photo discussion forum, I was surprised that commonly used sites score the K-S1 as being competitive with the Nikon D5500 and superior to the Canon T5i; DXO ratings for the K-S2 should be comparable to those for the K-S1, so Pentax may not need to keep the K-50 going in order to compete with Canikon. Now "all they have to do" is to get more brick-and-mortar places to carry their line
04-17-2015, 01:11 PM   #262
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sensor doesn't mean poop if the processing engine itself is poop. Look at how well the 16mp sensor did in the Pentax K5 for example, nothing else could touch it the way Pentax tweaked that thing.

This is why the "advantage" Sony has of keeping the best sensors close to the chest is negated, their processing engine is below par.



at any rate I'm going to see how everything unfolds over the next 6-10 months to see what my next body purchase is.

My D800 and K3 are still, for the most part, all the camera I need. There are some short falls in either camera that I would love to see rectified. Depending on whats out around this time next year will depend on the action I take. What I really want are these two cameras combined... but differently...

I want the dynamic range and ISO range of the D810, but out of a 24mp sensor in an APSC body with the AF system of the D810 and the flash capabilities of the D810...with a K mount.

Then I want DA*50-135 updated with the new ring motor, as well as a new DA*16-50 with upgraded optics, ring motor, and a fully integrated design. Then I want to be able to take both lenses and the new body home for under $3300. If that happens... no Pentax FF for me.

Last edited by Wired; 04-17-2015 at 01:21 PM.
04-17-2015, 01:13 PM   #263
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
There's no ambiguity here. Sony keeps the best of the best for themselves, to give them "an advantage" against competition
Except that this interview was done before Sony announced their new global vision in February, where camera sensors are one of the golden children, getting additional investment so sales can grow, and finished cameras and lenses are cash cows, who only get fed when they produce, and the expectation is that revenue will decline. Today, the only unambiguity at Sony is that they will continue to make sensors for sale to other manufacturers of finished goods.

04-17-2015, 01:45 PM   #264
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Today, the only unambiguity at Sony is that they will continue to make sensors for sale to other manufacturers of finished goods.
To make an imager , we use a standard semiconductor techno and add additional stages, especially at the end of the manufacturing process. The difference between the camera business and the sensor business is that Sony are using their fab not only for imagers but other ASICs as well. You can design and release a new imager in 6 months with less than 15 designers. The thing is once the base pixel cell and signal conditioning is designed, it's almost a matter of copy-paste to move from 1 pixel to 24Million pixel, of course there's some decoding logic added and redundancy to repair dead pixels and improve production yield, but it's not a big deal.

QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
Look at how well the 16mp sensor did in the Pentax K5 for example, nothing else could touch it the way Pentax tweaked that thing.
Pentax can only use the features that Sony semiconductors provide in their designs. Sony application engineers explain Pentax how to integrate their sensor and how to use it. In order to get the best signal/noise perf., all of the analog signal processing is designed by sony on the sensor itself. The job of Pentax consist of the mechanical, electrical integration and programming of the whole camera system. Pentax cannot act on the performance of the sensor, apart from using or not options given to them such as ISO80, and the selection of color filters, antialias filters. Semiconductors companies offer reference designs that customers such as Pentax can use as is or customize it to their needs.
04-17-2015, 02:15 PM   #265
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
To make an imager , we use a standard semiconductor techno and add additional stages, especially at the end of the manufacturing process. The difference between the camera business and the sensor business is that Sony are using their fab not only for imagers but other ASICs as well. You can design and release a new imager in 6 months with less than 15 designers. The thing is once the base pixel cell and signal conditioning is designed, it's almost a matter of copy-paste to move from 1 pixel to 24Million pixel, of course there's some decoding logic added and redundancy to repair dead pixels and improve production yield, but it's not a big deal.


Pentax can only use the features that Sony semiconductors provide in their designs. Sony application engineers explain Pentax how to integrate their sensor and how to use it. In order to get the best signal/noise perf., all of the analog signal processing is designed by sony on the sensor itself. The job of Pentax consist of the mechanical, electrical integration and programming of the whole camera system. Pentax cannot act on the performance of the sensor, apart from using or not options given to them such as ISO80, and the selection of color filters, antialias filters. Semiconductors companies offer reference designs that customers such as Pentax can use as is or customize it to their needs.
They can however tweak the software engine. This is why you can have 3 different cameras (Sony, Nikon, Pentax) deliver such different color rendering.
04-17-2015, 02:29 PM   #266
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
They can however tweak the software engine. This is why you can have 3 different cameras (Sony, Nikon, Pentax) deliver such different color rendering.
Yes, also , it seems that camera vendors can select the bayer filtering layers. For example the difference between the D810A and D810, having the same sensor (if I understood correctly). That probably what was tweaked on the D7200 (different color response), with perhaps no change of the underlying sensor itself.
04-17-2015, 02:46 PM   #267
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QuoteOriginally posted by RGlasel Quote
Except that this interview was done before Sony announced their new global vision in February, where camera sensors are one of the golden children, getting additional investment so sales can grow, and finished cameras and lenses are cash cows, who only get fed when they produce, and the expectation is that revenue will decline. Today, the only unambiguity at Sony is that they will continue to make sensors for sale to other manufacturers of finished goods.
After the hacking at Sony with documents published on Wikileaks, people learned that a new A7 and an A6000 will be released around June, if any of these sensors will make their way into a Ricoh body (FF or APSC) then I'll believe their making good on their "Global Vision" strategy....
04-17-2015, 02:47 PM   #268
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QuoteOriginally posted by biz-engineer Quote
with perhaps no change of the underlying sensor itself.
You mean no change comparing to the D7100? It is completely different sensor.
04-17-2015, 02:47 PM   #269
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
There's no ambiguity here. Sony keeps the best of the best for themselves, to give them "an advantage" against competition. The other camera brands buy these "best of the best" after some time have passed from their release within Sony bodies. The less qualitative sensors are sold to everyone, as soon as they become available.
It could just as well mean that first batches of new sensor is delivered to Sony camera division until that demand is filled. There's certainly not enough capacity to give everyone the sensor simultaneously. Also the second category could also mean that they could be tweaked to the customers wishes and made on order. The third category are obviously off-the shelf parts.
The rest may just be marketing speak; ie why a Sony camera is superior.
If you are the worlds largest supplier of sensor you better give the customers what they want. If not, there are enough other companies that will.....

Last edited by Pål Jensen; 04-17-2015 at 02:55 PM.
04-17-2015, 02:50 PM   #270
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
There's no ambiguity here. Sony keeps the best of the best for themselves, to give them "an advantage" against competition. The other camera brands buy these "best of the best" after some time have passed from their release within Sony bodies. The less qualitative sensors are sold to everyone, as soon as they become available.
This is the reason I don't get excited when they announce a spanking new sensor, because it never makes into a Ricoh body, not at the beginning.
They didn't claim to put every new sensor in this category of "not for external sale". The sensor in the A7s is unique and probably what most wouldn't want, anyway.
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