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04-21-2015, 01:57 PM   #541
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
As the example I used to illustrate why it's good shows: The built in flash is EXCELLENT at fill flash. Anything else, not so much. But as the shot of the tulip's is one of my biggest sellers, and could not and would not have been made without a built in flash, I am reluctant to give it up...


Might just have to pass on the K3II and pick up another cheap cheap cheap K3. We'll see.
Well, there are still plenty of K3 and K5 IIs out there and they will cheaper than the new camera. Get what works best for you.

04-21-2015, 02:13 PM   #542
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
Yea, but you don't ALWAYS have the cheap flash with you...
A cheap flash lives in my camera bag, basically next to the wide-angle lens and the battery grip; I hardly ever need any of them, but they are a small part of the weight of my bag, and I don't want to ever miss a picture because of something that I could have had with me.
04-21-2015, 04:25 PM   #543
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QuoteOriginally posted by Qwntm Quote
As the example I used to illustrate why it's good shows: The built in flash is EXCELLENT at fill flash. Anything else, not so much. But as the shot of the tulip's is one of my biggest sellers, and could not and would not have been made without a built in flash, I am reluctant to give it up.
Yeah me too. I have used it occasionally on trips at dusk, e.g. against the sunset, to give a bush or a rock in the foreground a bit of fill light. But your nice example motivates me to use it more often.

For holidays, hikes, city tours or anything else where small gear and light weight is paramount, I'm NOT going to carry a detached flash system, batteries, charger, etcetera with me. That's what the built-in flash is made for and good enough for. Because Pentax is a brand also aiming at travellers, taking away the flash was a downright mistake?

A built-in GPS in turn would be a redundant, therefore useless gimmick to me. On hikes I always have a real GPS in my trouser's pocket or attached to the strap (Garmin etrex), which is the far superior solution having the wider functionality I need. Not just for pedestrian route planning and daylight timing, but also the sun position planning for dusk&dawn photography. Once I used it even to determine when the moon dawns and from where, for some spontaneous night photography. A Garmin also doesn't deplete your camera batteries during your hike, but is on its own two AA batteries lasting for many days.

When back in civilization one can use his/her smartphone in an almost identical way, having similar advantages, for free.

Geotagging the photos when back at your computer is a press of a button with e.g. GeoSetter or similar utilities.

Finally, not all photography is "fine art" during trips, there's some social or other indoor photography as well occasionally. For that, a built-in flashlight is usefull whereas a GPS would be useless.

Please, Ricoh, give us back our flash!

Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 04:58 PM.
04-21-2015, 04:42 PM   #544
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Yeah me too. I have used it occasionally on trips at dusk, e.g. against the sunset, to give a bush or a rock in the foreground a bit of fill light. But your nice example motivates me to use it more often.

For holidays, hikes, city tours or anything else where small gear and light weight is paramount, I'm NOT going to carry a detached flash system, batteries, charger, etcetera with me. That's what the built-in flash is made for and good enough for. Because Pentax is a brand also aiming at travellers, taking away the flash was a downright mistake?

A built-in GPS in turn would be a redundant, therefore useless gimmick to me. On hikes I always have a real GPS in my trouser's pocket or attached to the strap (Garmin etrex), which is the far superior solution having the wider functionality I need. Not just for pedestrian route planning and daylight timing, but also the sun position planning for dusk&dawn photography. Once I used it even to determine when the moon dawns and from where, for some spontaneous night photography. A Garmin also doesn't deplete your camera batteries, but is on its own two AA batteries lasting for many days.

When back in civilization one can use his/her smartphone in an almost identical way, having similar advantages, for free.

Geotagging the photos when back at your laptop is a press of a button with e.g. "GeoSetter" or similar utilities.

Finally, not all photography is "fine art" during trips, there's some social photography as well occasionally. For that, a built-in flashlight is usefull, and a built-in GPS is useless.

Please, Ricoh, give us back our flash!
I really think you need a D7200. It has better auto focus, a built in flash and takes a lot of F Mount lenses.

04-21-2015, 04:44 PM   #545
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People finally took a break from all the speculations.....so quiet....isn't this nice.
04-21-2015, 05:18 PM   #546
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I really think you need a D7200. It has better auto focus, a built in flash and takes a lot of F Mount lenses.
Unfortunately, that is probably what a lot of people are going to say to themselves. And just think of all of the reviewers that will jump all over that! If Ricoh want to expand their user base, they are probably going to have to take market share from someone else. Where is the advantage? Why shoot yourself in the foot like this! This is annoying and embarrassing. I’ll stick with my k-5IIs. (Pro’s out there will probably scoff at this, but I’ll bet there are more non-pro’s buying Pentax, and many of this silent majority may be put off by not having a built-in flash.)
04-21-2015, 05:24 PM   #547
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QuoteOriginally posted by GearHead Quote
Unfortunately, that is probably what a lot of people are going to say to themselves. And just think of all of the reviewers that will jump all over that! If Ricoh want to expand their user base, they are probably going to have to take market share from someone else. Where is the advantage? Why shoot yourself in the foot like this! This is annoying and embarrassing. Iíll stick with my k-5IIs. (Proís out there will probably scoff at this, but Iíll bet there are more non-proís buying Pentax, and many of this silent majority may be put off by not having a built-in flash.)
Then why would anyone buy a Canon 5D MK III? The reality is that there will still be plenty of K3s around and if you want a built in flash and don't want the other features the K3 II offers, then get one of those. Frater has commented multiple, multiple times that the auto focus on the K3 is crappy -- mostly based on one three star review on Amazon. If you are looking for people who have negative things to say about a camera, you can usually find them.

I don't know that I will buy this camera -- I am saving for the full frame camera coming at the end of the year, but I don't expect most folks interested in a flagship camera to be swung too far one way or the other based on absence of a pop up flash.
04-21-2015, 06:05 PM   #548
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Frater has commented multiple, multiple times that the auto focus on the K3 is crappy -- mostly based on one three star review on Amazon.
That's all untrue. The autofocus of the K-3 is not "crappy". Only for some usage patterns (including people photography) it is sub-par compared to Nikon/Canons performance levels, and for some lenses the K-3 AF seemed to perform worse i.e. less reliable than the K-5ii(s) did. But still better for other lenses. It's just a "mixed bag", but not crappy. And I wasn't keen on spending much money on something which is just a mixed bag. That's all. Thought I better should wait for something better to come.

For the majority of users (including the very many f/8 photographers) (and the very many coming from the original K-5) (and the ones which are less demanding), the K-3 AF is probably good enough.

Amazon reviews didn't matter neither. I decided to skip the K-3 (to purchase the K-5ii instead) already begin of 2014, based on research during that time in multiple forums. This Amazon review you mention (the one tagged as "most helpful critical") emerged months later, in the middle of 2014. It was just a late re-confirmation, that users which have certain high demands are struck by issues. But his usage patterns were different from mine anyway, his AF problems came from a different angle if I remember right.


Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 06:56 PM.
04-21-2015, 06:13 PM   #549
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I haven't found good results with the built in flash. Pretty much had to ditch the photos each time. Maybe if I carried some kind of diffuser for it, it would be helpful, but then I might as well carry along an external flash and bounce or, just push my iso up.
the built in flash with diffuser works fine if I need a fill in,or not so much strength as an external flash..good to keep in I think
04-21-2015, 06:15 PM   #550
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Not being a professional just someone who shoots for the enjoyment, I feel like weighing in here. I will admit that the pop-up flash has came in handy a few times. However it would not be a deal breaker on a camera for me. If I could have a brighter view finder in its place I would take it over a flash. I use the viewfinder way more. Richoh still has mid-level cameras that fit that bill. The auto focus on my K3 works fine and gives me results I am happy with. If I find autofocus struggling I just focus manual or use quick shift if available. I never have understood all the complaints about the autofocus, but then I am not pixel peeper either. I currently have no reason to upgrade right now and if I did I would probably wait for a new model or FF. I try to focus on what my camera/lens do well and build on that. If you only focus on what it does not do well you probably will not be happy with any camera. This why I rarely rely just on user reviews for purchases.
04-21-2015, 06:21 PM   #551
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Then why would anyone buy a Canon 5D MK III?
These 5D and more so the 1D are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight, robust, weather resistant) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.

Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 06:39 PM.
04-21-2015, 06:42 PM   #552
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.
Talking about compact cameras and smartphones is totally irrelevant. Period. They fit into the long-term pattern; for many years point-and-shoot cameras (which these cameras are replacing) had built-in flash, but quality cameras provided a hot shoe so you could attach a quality flash. The K-S1 and K-S2 graze the top portion of the consumer light-weight leisure traveling market. The K-3 is priced way above that market.
04-21-2015, 07:21 PM   #553
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These 5D and more so the 1D are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight, robust, weather resistant) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.
I bet more 5D are sold to amateurs than pros. I'd put money on it.
04-21-2015, 07:29 PM   #554
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The K-3 is priced way above that market.
I think it is wrong to assume, that everyone who travels to explore landscapes and cities just throws a cheapo cam into their luggage, so that a K-3(ii) would be too expensive.


Remember Leica M. Or think about Fuji X-T1. Or Olympus. These are examples of very compact and expensive high-end systems, perfect for the ambitious (or even perfectionist) city traveller or hiking landscape explorer.

Many pros with a huge CaNikon DSLR get an second expensive but small system (such as one of the above) to save weight and increase convenience for some trips, yet still being enabled to get the pro level results they are used to.

And then think about consumers like us. You woudn't believe how much non-negotiable perfectionism there is in this segment, coupled with the desire to stay light. This is what drives the success of mirrorless, and reliably helps the survival of Olympus.

The market for small (esp. mirrorless) but high-end gear is a growing one. Unfortunately Pentax missed the chance to put a foot into that door, so that is currently Fujifilm's domain (for APSC). From that angle and with Fuji's help (once they bother regarding also the consumers' budgets), APSC will get quite a thrust in the market share. I think that those who proclaim that APSC is doomed, are wrong for many many years to come.

Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 07:45 PM.
04-21-2015, 07:41 PM   #555
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I think it is wrong to assume, that everyone who travels to explore landscapes and cities just throws a cheapo cam into their luggage, so that a K-3(ii) would be too expensive.


Remember Leica M. Or think about Fuji X-T1. Or Olympus. These are examples of very compact and expensive high-end systems, perfect for the ambitious (or even perfectionist) city traveller or hiking landscape explorer.

Many pros with a huge CaNikon DSLR get an second expensive but small system (such as one of the above) to save weight and increase convenience for some trips, yet still being enabled to get the pro level results they are used to.

And then think about consumers like us. You woudn't believe how much non-negotiable perfectionism there is in this segment, coupled with the desire to stay light. This is what drives the success of mirrorless.

The market for small (esp. mirrorless) but high-end gear is a growing one. Unfortunately Pentax missed the chance to put a foot into that door, so that is currently Fujifilm's domain (for APSC). From that angle and with Fuji's help, APSC will get quite a thrust in the market share. I think that those who proclaim that APSC is doomed, are wrong for many many years to come.
Actually, it appears to me that we basically agree here. The post I was responding to used compact cameras and cell phones to illustrate what "consumers" expect; my response was that the K-3 is pitched above "consumers" where "consumers" is defined as those who are satisfied with compact cameras and cell phone cameras. "Consumers" who were satisfied with point-and-shoot cameras, and now with compact cameras and cell phone cameras, will not be very interested in paying $$$$ for a K-3, so there is no point in including them in this conversation.
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