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04-21-2015, 06:42 PM   #556
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.
Talking about compact cameras and smartphones is totally irrelevant. Period. They fit into the long-term pattern; for many years point-and-shoot cameras (which these cameras are replacing) had built-in flash, but quality cameras provided a hot shoe so you could attach a quality flash. The K-S1 and K-S2 graze the top portion of the consumer light-weight leisure traveling market. The K-3 is priced way above that market.

04-21-2015, 07:21 PM   #557
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These 5D and more so the 1D are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight, robust, weather resistant) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.
I bet more 5D are sold to amateurs than pros. I'd put money on it.
04-21-2015, 07:29 PM   #558
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The K-3 is priced way above that market.
I think it is wrong to assume, that everyone who travels to explore landscapes and cities just throws a cheapo cam into their luggage, so that a K-3(ii) would be too expensive.


Remember Leica M. Or think about Fuji X-T1. Or Olympus. These are examples of very compact and expensive high-end systems, perfect for the ambitious (or even perfectionist) city traveller or hiking landscape explorer.

Many pros with a huge CaNikon DSLR get an second expensive but small system (such as one of the above) to save weight and increase convenience for some trips, yet still being enabled to get the pro level results they are used to.

And then think about consumers like us. You woudn't believe how much non-negotiable perfectionism there is in this segment, coupled with the desire to stay light. This is what drives the success of mirrorless, and reliably helps the survival of Olympus.

The market for small (esp. mirrorless) but high-end gear is a growing one. Unfortunately Pentax missed the chance to put a foot into that door, so that is currently Fujifilm's domain (for APSC). From that angle and with Fuji's help (once they bother regarding also the consumers' budgets), APSC will get quite a thrust in the market share. I think that those who proclaim that APSC is doomed, are wrong for many many years to come.

Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 07:45 PM.
04-21-2015, 07:41 PM   #559
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
I think it is wrong to assume, that everyone who travels to explore landscapes and cities just throws a cheapo cam into their luggage, so that a K-3(ii) would be too expensive.


Remember Leica M. Or think about Fuji X-T1. Or Olympus. These are examples of very compact and expensive high-end systems, perfect for the ambitious (or even perfectionist) city traveller or hiking landscape explorer.

Many pros with a huge CaNikon DSLR get an second expensive but small system (such as one of the above) to save weight and increase convenience for some trips, yet still being enabled to get the pro level results they are used to.

And then think about consumers like us. You woudn't believe how much non-negotiable perfectionism there is in this segment, coupled with the desire to stay light. This is what drives the success of mirrorless.

The market for small (esp. mirrorless) but high-end gear is a growing one. Unfortunately Pentax missed the chance to put a foot into that door, so that is currently Fujifilm's domain (for APSC). From that angle and with Fuji's help, APSC will get quite a thrust in the market share. I think that those who proclaim that APSC is doomed, are wrong for many many years to come.
Actually, it appears to me that we basically agree here. The post I was responding to used compact cameras and cell phones to illustrate what "consumers" expect; my response was that the K-3 is pitched above "consumers" where "consumers" is defined as those who are satisfied with compact cameras and cell phone cameras. "Consumers" who were satisfied with point-and-shoot cameras, and now with compact cameras and cell phone cameras, will not be very interested in paying $$$$ for a K-3, so there is no point in including them in this conversation.

04-21-2015, 07:58 PM   #560
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Ah OK. I'm using the term consumer differently, more in line with economists. To me, consumers are us, the ones which consume equipment to enjoy photography as a hobby.

Whereas professionals "invest" in eqipment to get a monetary return of this investment, in terms of commercial sales of their works and services.

So the wording pairs would be:
professionals -vs- amateurs
gear investors -vs- gear consumers
them -vs- us

Last edited by Frater; 04-21-2015 at 08:06 PM.
04-21-2015, 08:28 PM - 1 Like   #561
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Pentax K-3 II Full Specs, Image, to be Announced April 23th | Camera News at Cameraegg


Pentax K-3 II Specs List:
  • 24MP CMOS sensor (low-pass-less)
  • Improved Anchimoare function
  • Effects of shutter 4.5 stage of camera shake correction
  • The high-resolution image by pixel shifting. Low noise excellent color reproduction and detail.
  • 86000 pixel RGB metering sensor
  • ISO range 100-51200
  • Video Full HD 60fps / 30fps
  • Dust and water proof. 92 places sealing of
  • Chassis stainless. The body is magnesium alloy
  • Flash not equipped
  • GPS built-in
  • Built-in electronic compass. Can be displayed the direction on the LCD monitor
  • ASTROTRACER
  • AF module SAFOX 11. AF point 27 points (25 points cross type)
  • Accuracy improvement of continuous AF
  • Continuous shooting 8.3 frames / sec. 60 sheets in JPEG, 23 shots at RAW
  • Image processing engine PRIME III
  • Finder penta prism. 100% field of view, magnification 0.95x
  • LCD monitor 3.2 inches, 1.037 million dot
  • Dual SD card slot
  • Allows remote operation from the smartphone-tablet ∑ PC with the optional Flu Card
  • USB 3.0 and HDMI terminal
  • Synchro Terminal
  • The battery D-LI90
  • The size of 131.5 x 102.5 x 77.5
  • Weight 785g


To me, it is not much of a major improvement.....or maybe I was thinking of how many had said it was going to be earth shattering.

---------- Post added 04-21-15 at 08:53 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
here's my "cryptic" post from yesterday:

If Ricoh/Pentax has any intentions to built the class leading K3 Mark II APS-C camera that has no pop-up flash, what could it possibly offer in terms of upgrades over the older K3?


An APS-C camera with the sensor "characteristics" of the K5/ii/s and performance of the K3, IMO it's enough reason to celebrate


Not really. Again, when you think about it there comes a point where how much is enough....and of course it will be an APS-C sensor with the performance of a K-3 because it is an APS-C. There are many who look at their pics and say the sweet 16 sensor was great and they see the K-3 as sub par by comparison but either way, they take both great pics. It is like getting a Pentium X processor. Yes, people upgraded to a point by going to Pentium 2 to 3 to....but they they realize, wait.....my comp is fast enough, why upgrade ? GPS is great for astro people but when you think about it, how many of us would really use it ? How much of us would really use a flash ? Well, at least to trigger since this camera has no other option unless you want to take another external with you but then again, you could have done the same thing with the external GPS, which again, not as many people will use. Oh wait....geotracking......use wifi to your smartphone and you could have done that but the 3II does not have built in wifi.


In my mind, Pentax failed this one, and it is more of a downgrade than an upgrade. Sure pixel shifting, I will see how it works when I shoot sports. Oh wait, It is for landscape or still shots so another option that is going to be of limited use in such issues. I was so excited to see where Pentax was going, and now it is looking in a direction that many will hopefully understand and benefit. Now it is going to be a comparison for a new user to look at a Nikon vs a Pentax and they will think Nikon will have a flash or wifi and I might need it, but I will never need it for GPS. Win - Nikon. And don't even get me going about lack of Wifi but wait, we have a flu card.


Makes me wonder what is going to happen to the FF. Cutting edge but I think we know which direction it will go and everyone will have to debate it and say "yeah but it has this". They should have added something that the average Joe will see it and recognize completely that ahhh Wifi.....ahhh pop up flash....instead of pixel shifting or GPS. I am done venting.


SMH

Last edited by JimC1101; 04-21-2015 at 08:58 PM.
04-21-2015, 09:00 PM   #562
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Ah OK. I'm using the term consumer differently, more in line with economists. To me, consumers are us, the ones which consume equipment to enjoy photography as a hobby.

Whereas professionals "invest" in eqipment to get a monetary return of this investment, in terms of commercial sales of their works and services.

So the wording pairs would be:
professionals -vs- amateurs
gear investors -vs- gear consumers
them -vs- us
I don't care what vocabulary we use, as long as we use it consistently. The K-3 is not competition for the compact cameras and cell phone cameras which have vanquished point-and-shoot cameras from above and from below. The question of what capabilities the K-3ii needs can be answered only by looking at the needs of the "typical" person who will use a camera of this caliber, not of those who buy cameras of that lower (point-and-shoot) caliber, and those needs are what we are having a hard time agreeing on. In roughly nineteen hours, if the most recent time estimate are accurate, we will have an official Pentax answer to that question, and over the following weeks we will have a response from those who buy top-level APS-C cameras, whatever we call that group.
04-21-2015, 09:14 PM   #563
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
Thank goodness they got rid of that vestigial built-in flash. I've been carrying around that useless POS all these years and in the handful of times I used it it was pretty much crap. GPS will be much more useful for me. If I need extra light, I'll carry a real flash.
+1 the on board flash is essentially useless if you have any lens mounted larger than the kit zoom or a small prime. So it makes no difference if it is "always there" you cannot use it anyway.

---------- Post added 04-21-15 at 09:19 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by GearHead Quote
Unfortunately, that is probably what a lot of people are going to say to themselves. And just think of all of the reviewers that will jump all over that! If Ricoh want to expand their user base, they are probably going to have to take market share from someone else. Where is the advantage? Why shoot yourself in the foot like this! This is annoying and embarrassing. Iíll stick with my k-5IIs. (Proís out there will probably scoff at this, but Iíll bet there are more non-proís buying Pentax, and many of this silent majority may be put off by not having a built-in flash.)
Not a 'pro' but I'm scoffing. IMHO the on board flash should have been killed and a stake driven through it before being buried at sea in a lead box. Originally invented to give buyers the impression they were buying a "real" camera that had a flash like the pros. It's demise is long past due.

04-21-2015, 09:24 PM   #564
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
+1 the on board flash is essentially useless if you have any lens mounted larger than the kit zoom or a small prime. So it makes no difference if it is "always there" you cannot use it anyway.
Fortunately, Pentax is known for its small primes!

But yeah...I can't use it with my Sigma 18-35, except at 35mm and only if the hood is taken off. Heck, you can't use the pop-up flash with the compact 18-55 with the hood either, at least at short focal lengths. If something fails with the kit lens...
04-21-2015, 09:26 PM   #565
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
The autofocus of the K-3 is not "crappy". Only for some usage patterns (including people photography) it is sub-par compared to Nikon/Canons performance levels, and for some lenses the K-3 AF seemed to perform worse i.e. less reliable than the K-5ii(s) did. But still better for other lenses. It's just a "mixed bag", but not crappy.
Perhaps you should actually try it. On the k-x and k-5 I routinely took 3 shots to be sure I had one properly in focus. I continued that practice on the k-3 until I realized ALL of the shots were in focus and I was wasting time trying to figure out which one to keep. Now I only take one shot. Keeper rate, for focus, is 95% plus. Plenty of other mistakes, mine not the camera, but the focus is bang on even if the image is crappy.
QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These 5D and more so the 1D are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems.
Maybe Pentax thinks the k-3II is a heavy professional grade body?

---------- Post added 04-21-15 at 09:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by MadMathMind Quote
Heck, you can't use the pop-up flash with the compact 18-55 with the hood either, at least at short focal lengths. If something fails with the kit lens...
Yep. My carry kit is DA 12-24, DA*16-50, and DA*60-250. Want to guess how useful built in flash is?

---------- Post added 04-21-15 at 09:40 PM ----------

I am a little amazed at the polarization on views on this camera. But I guess it shows the difference in needs for various shooting styles. Everyone is going to have a list of features they prefer and features they don't need or like. I honestly was expecting built in WiFi and no GPS. Instead we get GPS, no WiFI and no flash. That nails my feature list, and unfortunately misses widely for some other folks.

We can only wonder at why certain features were included and others left off but we should always remember there is a limited amount of space inside that body and likely animated discussion in the R&D department on what goes in just as there is here.

Bottom line, the most important thing is that Ricoh is providing yet another camera body with improvements and new features. Like the feature set or not, this is a long way from one foot in the grave. Which is where Pentax was not all that long ago.

And two days ago I was saving for a FF at the end of the year. Now I'm not so sure. Maybe the k-3II is a better buy (for me) than a FF. Wonderful to have such choices to make.
04-21-2015, 10:43 PM   #566
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
These 5D and more so the 1D are heavy professional grade bodies e.g. for commercial work in studio environments using professional studio lighting systems. They are by no means systems aiming at consumers' light-weight leisure travelling like Pentax bodies do. Every cam wanting to be regarded as fit-for-leisure-travelling-purposes (compact, light-weight, robust, weather resistant) should have a built-in flash. Period. Even compact cams have it. Even advanced smartphones have photo light.
Professional or not, still, an embedded flash triggering the other flashes would be useful but it would prevent Canon to sell you another stupidly priced accessory.
04-21-2015, 10:51 PM   #567
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I think Ricoh should do away with the white balance modes and add a cell phone feature. Or remove the RAW file formats and add a note pad feature...


My main point is that a flash actually DIRECTLY affects the look of your photograph. GPS and wifi, not so much.


It's supposed to be a camera. Where and what are the philosophical design priorities in removing a flash and adding a GPS? Continue down that road and evolutionarily some day you might end up making cappuccinos with your camera instead of taking photos.
04-21-2015, 11:10 PM   #568
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Im probably in the minority but I'm ok with the K3ii... I wasn't really expecting any massive change with the new FF being worked on . They also need some features to put in the K4 for next year..

Improved SR 3.5 - 4.5 is nice.
Improved AFC accuracy is not going to hurt anyone.
As i was thinking of getting the o-gps unit , having the builtin GPS unit is good. Only concern is out much battery it will use.. That is one advantage of the external unit having its own power.
High Res pixel shifting - its there and ill probably use it.

Not clear if there is a new sensor being used... Not that there is anything wrong with the current sensor in the K3.
04-21-2015, 11:11 PM - 1 Like   #569
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Because the GPS is useful and the onboard flash, when used with most zooms, is not. To get a useful flash you need an external unit anyway so why keep pretending the onboard thingy is anything but a gimmick? I give Ricoh points for facing reality and dumping it despite the potential bad reviews.
04-21-2015, 11:40 PM - 1 Like   #570
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
it is sub-par compared to Nikon/Canons performance levels
You really need to be more specific when making such assertions.

Nikon has about 8 DSLR's in it's lineup, Canon about the same. Not all of them are super-duper AF machines. Just look at the FF Canon 6D (11 point AF, 1 cross type) ...

When you compare all the AF specs of the K-3 with it's 2013 contemporaries (AF points, cross type points, low-light sensitivity, AF-C mode options, metering sensor) it compares very creditably, and holds it's own performance wise.

Pair it with a good responsive lens, and the K-3 can hold it's own with just about any current Nikon or Canon.
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