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04-22-2015, 06:57 PM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Of course there should be room for both. Other camera makers accompished this as well, or haven't they? Therefore, for now I only can imagine a business motivation for dropping the internal flash, which is to generate additional revenue by motivating purchases for external flash units.
I would not know, have they? And put it in a body the size of a k-3? Help me out with a model number.

Please re-read my post, obviously you missed my point.

04-22-2015, 07:26 PM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I would not know, have they? And put it in a body the size of a k-3? Help me out with a model number.

Please re-read my post, obviously you missed my point.
I think the astro tracer is more than just a simple GPS unit. I don't know if it takes up much more space, but the external unit isn't exactly tiny.
04-22-2015, 07:29 PM   #738
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Just coming into my mind: Having both flash and GPS would have been possible, BUT it could have required changes of how technology is laid out within the body. Which could have required undesired re-design effort. Whereas sacrifying the flash was a quick and effortless shortcut to gain room, w/o redesigning anything else inside the camera.

I don't think it's that the body volume would have been too small in general. GPS units are tiny, and smartphones demonstrate their accommodation even though they have much less space allowances inside. If Ricoh had designed a new body, they could have accommodated the GPS somewhere else easily.

Astrotracing is just software.
04-22-2015, 07:31 PM - 1 Like   #739
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Fair point. Having both flash and GPS would have been possible, but it could have required changes of how technology is laid out within the body. Which could have required undesired re-design effort. Whereas sacrifying the flash was a quick and effortless shortcut to gain room, w/o redesigning anything else inside the camera.

I don't think it's that the body volume would have been too small in general. GPS units are tiny, and smartphones demonstrate their accommodation even though the have much less space allowances inside. If Ricoh had designed a new Body, they could have accommodated the GPS somewhere else.
Obviously you should hire on with Ricoh-Pentax.
They obviously need your engineering expertise.

04-22-2015, 07:46 PM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by Frater Quote
Just coming into my mind: Having both flash and GPS would have been possible, BUT it could have required changes of how technology is laid out within the body. Which could have required undesired re-design effort. Whereas sacrifying the flash was a quick and effortless shortcut to gain room, w/o redesigning anything else inside the camera.

I don't think it's that the body volume would have been too small in general. GPS units are tiny, and smartphones demonstrate their accommodation even though they have much less space allowances inside. If Ricoh had designed a new body, they could have accommodated the GPS somewhere else easily.

Astrotracing is just software.
You may have a point, as I suspect that traditional camera makers (Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Leica) are a step behind companies like Sony and Samsung when it comes to incorporating SOCs (System On a Chip) into their products. For example, I've got a Sony Smartwatch 3 on my wrist. It's got a GPS, NFC, accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer, and compass in a package about the size of a pack of matches. Take away the display and the battery, and I bet the SOC that contains all of this stuff (a Qualcomm IIRC) is about the size of an SD card. But fitting that into current bodies AND integrating it into the camera electronics is likely a decent engineering effort that was understandably not explored for the incremental K-3ii.


But I'd love to see some of this stuff in the FF...

Last edited by johnmflores; 04-22-2015 at 07:57 PM.
04-22-2015, 08:25 PM   #741
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
You may have a point, as I suspect that traditional camera makers (Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Leica) are a step behind companies like Sony and Samsung when it comes to incorporating SOCs (System On a Chip) into their products. For example, I've got a Sony Smartwatch 3 on my wrist. It's got a GPS, NFC, accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer, and compass in a package about the size of a pack of matches. Take away the display and the battery, and I bet the SOC that contains all of this stuff (a Qualcomm IIRC) is about the size of an SD card. But fitting that into current bodies AND integrating it into the camera electronics is likely a decent engineering effort that was understandably not explored for the incremental K-3ii.


But I'd love to see some of this stuff in the FF...
100% this. Ok maybe 95%, it's not the engineering expertise thats in question, it's what they have to work with. Theres a limit to complete interior redesign opportunity, and what they can do with what is already on the board. A lot of the crossover market, like a smart watch to a galaxy camera, have the included systems ready to implement. But taking such things and joining them into such a tried and true proper camera setup is another thing entirely. Size and power restraints probably the big two, weather proofing and reliability another. They probably haven't thrown brand new silicon into this thing, as you say its an incremental upgrade. I dare say the processors samsung use down low were passed or scaled up into the camera range, whereas pentax/nikon use image processing specific stuff to start with.

But any level headed reasoning based on real world observations will obviously fall on deaf ears for the most part so WHERES MY CRAPPY FLASH!?!?
04-22-2015, 08:52 PM   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I can only imagine that most folks who would buy a K3 II already own an external flash. I think we have to take it that there wasn't space for both in the K3 body and Pentax wasn't ready to change the body. It was whatever they could shoe horn into it.


Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
04-22-2015, 08:56 PM - 2 Likes   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
You've made your point you don't like the k3ii because It doesn't have a flash. Message received. Let the other % who doesn't share your point of view buy the product.

04-22-2015, 09:00 PM - 1 Like   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
You don't have to buy the K-3ii.
04-22-2015, 09:04 PM   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by bibz Quote
100% this. Ok maybe 95%, it's not the engineering expertise thats in question, it's what they have to work with. Theres a limit to complete interior redesign opportunity, and what they can do with what is already on the board. A lot of the crossover market, like a smart watch to a galaxy camera, have the included systems ready to implement. But taking such things and joining them into such a tried and true proper camera setup is another thing entirely. Size and power restraints probably the big two, weather proofing and reliability another. They probably haven't thrown brand new silicon into this thing, as you say its an incremental upgrade. I dare say the processors samsung use down low were passed or scaled up into the camera range, whereas pentax/nikon use image processing specific stuff to start with.
You are partly right on this. I am a software engineer by trade, and I have worked with outstanding hardware engineers on projects such as this. I doubt if anyone here realizes the amount of work needed to "integrate" electronics, even if all the pieces already exist. In a project like this, there are all kinds of voltage level and amperage level issues that have to be dealt with. Electronics are not as consistent as we would all wish, so they have to deal with different components having different expectations from meaning of signals to timing of those signals. Of course, there are heat issues to deal with, signal "cross-talk" issues to deal with ... and a bunch of other things I don't even pretend to understand (and I was an undergraduate minor in physics). Once you get all of that done, you hand the whole thing over to people like me, and the process starts all over again, because the different components undoubtedly have completely different expectations as to how the data bits are organized and handled; I spent an entire summer one year (at a major defense contractor) just working out how to convert/pass data between three or four gadgets on a military scout vehicle. In the middle of the software work, you can depend on running into something that isn't working correctly, and the two engineers spend a day (or a week) simply determining whether it is a hardware or software problem - and if it is an unexpected hardware problem, the software work may go into neutral while the hardware guy pushes past that problem. Eventually it gets to testing, and if anything serious comes up, it goes back to figuring out whether it is hardware or software before anyone can fix the blasted thing.
QuoteOriginally posted by bibz Quote
But any level headed reasoning based on real world observations will obviously fall on deaf ears for the most part so WHERES MY CRAPPY FLASH!?!?
crapped out?
04-22-2015, 09:07 PM   #746
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
You've made your point you don't like the k3ii because It doesn't have a flash. Message received. Let the other % who doesn't share your point of view buy the product.


Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
04-22-2015, 09:21 PM   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
Your posts are relevant don't get me wrong. If Ricoh says that they listen to their consumers, then I think everyone should have a say.

I thought you were repeating yourself a bit (but i could be wrong)

Last edited by Stavri; 04-22-2015 at 09:34 PM.
04-23-2015, 12:15 AM   #748
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
If Ricoh says that they listen to their consumers
They do. One of the things i do rapport back to them too.
04-23-2015, 02:50 AM   #749
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
They do. One of the things i do rapport back to them too.
That's good. One of the things they should definitely enable via firmware is user selectable SDM or screwdrive on those lenses that have both.

By the way Ken, I hear you shoot gigs and concerts, right? Should you want to come to this major rock festival, Provinssi, in Finland next June, you can count on free accommodation My parents live within walking/biking distance and they vacate their flat during the festival. I go to this festival, it's a yearly pilgrimage

Here is the festival home page:
Provinssi 2015 | 24.-27.6.2015 Seinäjoella

It's been held yearly since 1979 and is definitely one of the best and most prestigious rock festivals here.
04-23-2015, 02:53 AM   #750
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
You are fine to want an on board flash. What I (and other posters) are trying to do is guess why Pentax decided to leave it off and think about whether or not the absence of said flash will be a detriment to sales.

My guess (as I said before) is that they had to choose between the pop up flash and putting the GPS unit in and they decided to put the GPS unit in as more of a stand out item. Not for the GPS tagging aspect, but for the astro tracing function, which is one of those things that just sounds really cool in reviews.

On the other hand, my guess is that while people may grumble about the absence of the pop up flash, few people will actually hinge their purchase purely on the presence/absence of the in camera flash. It is purely a guess and we will see. But the camera itself otherwise looks very nice and the launch price looks pretty sweet to me, as well.
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