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04-22-2015, 08:25 PM   #736
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
You may have a point, as I suspect that traditional camera makers (Canon, Nikon, Pentax, Olympus, Leica) are a step behind companies like Sony and Samsung when it comes to incorporating SOCs (System On a Chip) into their products. For example, I've got a Sony Smartwatch 3 on my wrist. It's got a GPS, NFC, accelerometer, gyroscope, magnetometer, and compass in a package about the size of a pack of matches. Take away the display and the battery, and I bet the SOC that contains all of this stuff (a Qualcomm IIRC) is about the size of an SD card. But fitting that into current bodies AND integrating it into the camera electronics is likely a decent engineering effort that was understandably not explored for the incremental K-3ii.


But I'd love to see some of this stuff in the FF...
100% this. Ok maybe 95%, it's not the engineering expertise thats in question, it's what they have to work with. Theres a limit to complete interior redesign opportunity, and what they can do with what is already on the board. A lot of the crossover market, like a smart watch to a galaxy camera, have the included systems ready to implement. But taking such things and joining them into such a tried and true proper camera setup is another thing entirely. Size and power restraints probably the big two, weather proofing and reliability another. They probably haven't thrown brand new silicon into this thing, as you say its an incremental upgrade. I dare say the processors samsung use down low were passed or scaled up into the camera range, whereas pentax/nikon use image processing specific stuff to start with.

But any level headed reasoning based on real world observations will obviously fall on deaf ears for the most part so WHERES MY CRAPPY FLASH!?!?

04-22-2015, 08:52 PM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I can only imagine that most folks who would buy a K3 II already own an external flash. I think we have to take it that there wasn't space for both in the K3 body and Pentax wasn't ready to change the body. It was whatever they could shoe horn into it.


Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
04-22-2015, 08:56 PM - 2 Likes   #738
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
You've made your point you don't like the k3ii because It doesn't have a flash. Message received. Let the other % who doesn't share your point of view buy the product.
04-22-2015, 09:00 PM - 1 Like   #739
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Well. here is my problem. The crappy flash, that at least worked well for fill flash, is not there so now I will buy a 201FG, which is not such a bad thing, but I will have to have it attached to my camera all the time. Taking pictures is spontaneity in many instances so I would have to keep my flash on for those cases even in fill flash. I wont want to leave my Metz 52 on my camera all the time because it is too big for a true walk around. So now the K-3II has eliminated 2 things, compactability and convenience.


Secondly, the 18 month product cycle which seems to be what the K-3 was means that Pentax had a year and a half to design or redesign the K-3II. I would think that after that much time to prepare, they could have had a slam dunk product with all things to everyone, GPS, onboard flash and wifi. Now people will need to decide if they will get it or not because of compromises,
You don't have to buy the K-3ii.

04-22-2015, 09:04 PM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by bibz Quote
100% this. Ok maybe 95%, it's not the engineering expertise thats in question, it's what they have to work with. Theres a limit to complete interior redesign opportunity, and what they can do with what is already on the board. A lot of the crossover market, like a smart watch to a galaxy camera, have the included systems ready to implement. But taking such things and joining them into such a tried and true proper camera setup is another thing entirely. Size and power restraints probably the big two, weather proofing and reliability another. They probably haven't thrown brand new silicon into this thing, as you say its an incremental upgrade. I dare say the processors samsung use down low were passed or scaled up into the camera range, whereas pentax/nikon use image processing specific stuff to start with.
You are partly right on this. I am a software engineer by trade, and I have worked with outstanding hardware engineers on projects such as this. I doubt if anyone here realizes the amount of work needed to "integrate" electronics, even if all the pieces already exist. In a project like this, there are all kinds of voltage level and amperage level issues that have to be dealt with. Electronics are not as consistent as we would all wish, so they have to deal with different components having different expectations from meaning of signals to timing of those signals. Of course, there are heat issues to deal with, signal "cross-talk" issues to deal with ... and a bunch of other things I don't even pretend to understand (and I was an undergraduate minor in physics). Once you get all of that done, you hand the whole thing over to people like me, and the process starts all over again, because the different components undoubtedly have completely different expectations as to how the data bits are organized and handled; I spent an entire summer one year (at a major defense contractor) just working out how to convert/pass data between three or four gadgets on a military scout vehicle. In the middle of the software work, you can depend on running into something that isn't working correctly, and the two engineers spend a day (or a week) simply determining whether it is a hardware or software problem - and if it is an unexpected hardware problem, the software work may go into neutral while the hardware guy pushes past that problem. Eventually it gets to testing, and if anything serious comes up, it goes back to figuring out whether it is hardware or software before anyone can fix the blasted thing.
QuoteOriginally posted by bibz Quote
But any level headed reasoning based on real world observations will obviously fall on deaf ears for the most part so WHERES MY CRAPPY FLASH!?!?
crapped out?
04-22-2015, 09:07 PM   #741
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
You've made your point you don't like the k3ii because It doesn't have a flash. Message received. Let the other % who doesn't share your point of view buy the product.


Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
04-22-2015, 09:21 PM   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
Your posts are relevant don't get me wrong. If Ricoh says that they listen to their consumers, then I think everyone should have a say.

I thought you were repeating yourself a bit (but i could be wrong)

Last edited by Stavri; 04-22-2015 at 09:34 PM.
04-23-2015, 12:15 AM   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
If Ricoh says that they listen to their consumers
They do. One of the things i do rapport back to them too.

04-23-2015, 02:50 AM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
They do. One of the things i do rapport back to them too.
That's good. One of the things they should definitely enable via firmware is user selectable SDM or screwdrive on those lenses that have both.

By the way Ken, I hear you shoot gigs and concerts, right? Should you want to come to this major rock festival, Provinssi, in Finland next June, you can count on free accommodation My parents live within walking/biking distance and they vacate their flat during the festival. I go to this festival, it's a yearly pilgrimage

Here is the festival home page:
Provinssi 2015 | 24.-27.6.2015 Seinäjoella

It's been held yearly since 1979 and is definitely one of the best and most prestigious rock festivals here.
04-23-2015, 02:53 AM   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by JimC1101 Quote
Hmmm....fair enough, maybe you should say to refrain from the other posters who say the same thing why they do like omitting the onboard flash.


I thought this was a forum where discussion is made for and against and I, as being the OP in this thread, did not know there was a limit to what should and should not be discussed in regard to topic.


My bad
You are fine to want an on board flash. What I (and other posters) are trying to do is guess why Pentax decided to leave it off and think about whether or not the absence of said flash will be a detriment to sales.

My guess (as I said before) is that they had to choose between the pop up flash and putting the GPS unit in and they decided to put the GPS unit in as more of a stand out item. Not for the GPS tagging aspect, but for the astro tracing function, which is one of those things that just sounds really cool in reviews.

On the other hand, my guess is that while people may grumble about the absence of the pop up flash, few people will actually hinge their purchase purely on the presence/absence of the in camera flash. It is purely a guess and we will see. But the camera itself otherwise looks very nice and the launch price looks pretty sweet to me, as well.
04-23-2015, 03:11 AM   #746
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
You are fine to want an on board flash. What I (and other posters) are trying to do is guess why Pentax decided to leave it off and think about whether or not the absence of said flash will be a detriment to sales.

My guess (as I said before) is that they had to choose between the pop up flash and putting the GPS unit in and they decided to put the GPS unit in as more of a stand out item. Not for the GPS tagging aspect, but for the astro tracing function, which is one of those things that just sounds really cool in reviews.

On the other hand, my guess is that while people may grumble about the absence of the pop up flash, few people will actually hinge their purchase purely on the presence/absence of the in camera flash. It is purely a guess and we will see. But the camera itself otherwise looks very nice and the launch price looks pretty sweet to me, as well.


We will see and your are correct, the price is fine but a new user would have to understand that if he needs to get a flash, or flu card, that will increase the price by a few hundred $'s so the price is a little misleading. I am sure they will bundle at least a flash somehow..


Adam added a poll so it will be interesting to see the results. Not scientific of course but we went through this same discussion a few weeks back as to how important a FF on board is to the user.


Of course, I think this subject will always polarize one or the other and that is fine. We all have different needs for our camera. GPS is great but I would never use it, maybe someday and it is nice to have it in case I want to use it. I wonder how many people would actually use it, but I would never tell anyone to take it away. Maybe another poll. :P
04-23-2015, 03:13 AM   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rorschach Quote
That's good. One of the things they should definitely enable via firmware is user selectable SDM or screwdrive on those lenses that have both.

By the way Ken, I hear you shoot gigs and concerts, right? Should you want to come to this major rock festival, Provinssi, in Finland next June, you can count on free accommodation My parents live within walking/biking distance and they vacate their flat during the festival. I go to this festival, it's a yearly pilgrimage

Here is the festival home page:
Provinssi 2015 | 24.-27.6.2015 Seinäjoella

It's been held yearly since 1979 and is definitely one of the best and most prestigious rock festivals here.
Yes, i shoot for Metal Hammer. Mostly concerts, but also portraits and article pics etc. I wish i could go this year i see by the lineup..haha! But can't! But i would love to come next year. Let us keep in touch on that matter
04-23-2015, 03:51 AM   #748
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Personally I'm a little bit disappointed that the features of the new mid range camera KS-2 (articulated screen and nfc/wifi) haven't made it into the top of the range refresh. I'm sure Pentax didn't want to devote a whole lot of engineering time to the K3-II while working on the FF.
What we have here seems to be the body that Pentax has been using to prototype new features going into the FF. The pentaprism hump on this camera matches what we've seen on the FF mockup.
It seems like a lost opportunity but if you're a K5 owner, this is a nice jump. As a K3 owner, I'm not sure I'd notice a whole lot with the same 8.3 fps and super resolution only available for landscape/tripod work. I'm losing a flash that I rarely/never use for a GPS receiver that I'll probably never use either.

Once feature that no one ever mentions, but would be a bit of a game changer, would be to integrate a flash radio trigger in the body. Put in Pentax specific PTTL remote flash triggering via a built in radio and sell a hotshoe stand with a built in receiver for the existing flashes. Or maybe emulate/support the most popular transmitters like Pocketwizard, Cactus and Elinchrom inside the camera and offer a camera bundle with some matching receivers. The functionality in the body could be enabled by buying a code unique to your camera's serial no. and out of the box, you could trigger studio flashes. My Elinchrom studio lights have built in receivers and it's so handy. When you have to set up a white screen, lights, a tripod etc, every step that you eliminate makes the camera desirable for mobile photographers. The people who spend their days going out to schools taking group photos or baby shots for a living.
04-23-2015, 03:52 AM   #749
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Yes, i shoot for Metal Hammer. Mostly concerts, but also portraits and article pics etc. I wish i could go this year i see by the lineup..haha! But can't! But i would love to come next year. Let us keep in touch on that matter
Sure thing, a new chance next year!
04-23-2015, 06:41 AM   #750
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rorschach Quote
That's good. One of the things they should definitely enable via firmware is user selectable SDM or screwdrive on those lenses that have both.

By the way Ken, I hear you shoot gigs and concerts, right? Should you want to come to this major rock festival, Provinssi, in Finland next June, you can count on free accommodation My parents live within walking/biking distance and they vacate their flat during the festival. I go to this festival, it's a yearly pilgrimage

Here is the festival home page:
Provinssi 2015 | 24.-27.6.2015 Seinäjoella

It's been held yearly since 1979 and is definitely one of the best and most prestigious rock festivals here.
I hear ABBA is making a comeback ?
(Sorry ... couldn't resist!)
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