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04-23-2015, 01:46 PM   #526
mee
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I only use the onboard flash for firing off camera flashes or also in the pinch when I just need ANY kind of light (rare). I've learned if you're lighting someone with on camera flash head on, you're often doing it wrong. Gives that awful deer in the headlights look to the lighting. hence the need for bounce or off camera to angle the lighting.

And tell me how many times are you going to be out hiking, shooting a waterfall??? Maybe that was sarcasm though again.. If that is what you want to shoot you will need a MUCH larger flash than the 201 -- that thing is tinyyy.

tool for the job is right.. the 201 is not the tool for any job. (I stand correct the Q7 it might fare better)

---------- Post added 04-23-15 at 03:47 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It all depends of how you define the function of a shoe mounted flash. This one actually does tilt, from -10 to +135 degrees, which is 145 degrees of tilt more than the built-in flash which it replaces. The AF201FG is not yet available, but once it is available, I'll have to consider one for my Q7. Right now I'm using the ancient Vivitar flash that I got 20+ years ago to use with my Super Program. According to the write-up, the AF201FG also has a pull-out panel for use with wide-angle lenses; my experience with a similar device on a Canon flash suggests that using the panel (also not available with built-in flash) with standard lenses may diffuse the light enough that one flash will be plenty at short range.

Most importantly, most of the complaining I've heard relates to triggering other flashes. This flash would be just fine to do that.

But we're talking about the K-3II here.. not the Q7.

04-23-2015, 01:50 PM   #527
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QuoteOriginally posted by filoxophy Quote
If that's what you get out of Ricoh's recent actions, then I'm not sure what to say.

Re the pixel shifting, it's for increased color information and decreased noise, not increased resolution per se.
The Foveon photos were lower in resolution, but you could interpolate it to the resolution of contemporary sensors and it would look quite similar. So I expect the photos to be sharper than what we are used to.

The problem with the K-S2 is that it lacks the top LCD, and I use that quite often.

Sometimes all that matters is that a photo exists and you recognize who is on it. And for those instances an on camera flash is enough. Plus you can always use a diffusor or bounce card. Or they might even have made the flash rotatable, so that you can shoot up to bounce it.
04-23-2015, 01:51 PM   #528
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A K-3 II body which retained the popup flash AND added internal GPS, WiFi and NFC, would probably not have presented Ricoh with an impossible engineering challenge, and only cost them a few extra bucks.

If I was them, I would have done it, even if it meant adding $100 to the launch price.

That way buyers [and sellers] could easily focus on the other attractive features of the camera, without having to deal with the pros and cons of added/subtracted features, especially when check-listing the camera relative to competitors.
04-23-2015, 01:53 PM   #529
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
But we're talking about the K-3II here.. not the Q7.
We're talking about a replacement for the On-Board flash.

04-23-2015, 01:54 PM   #530
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
A K-3 II body which retained the popup flash AND added internal GPS, WiFi and NFC, would probably not have presented Ricoh with an impossible engineering challenge, and only cost them a few extra bucks.

If I was them, I would have done it, even if it meant adding $100 to the launch price.

That way buyers [and sellers] could easily focus on the other attractive features of the camera, without having to deal with the pros and cons of added/subtracted features, especially when check-listing the camera relative to competitors.
This is too is assumption.. but it does make me wonder that side now. I wonder just how tight with electronics is the K-3II body? It would be interesting to understand Ricoh's decision on this.. straight from the horses mouth so to speak.

---------- Post added 04-23-15 at 03:55 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
We're talking about a replacement for the On-Board flash.
We're talking about a replacement for the Onboard flash of the K-3II in a thread about the K-3II.

Since there is no onboard flash for the K-3II, one is limited to using shoemounted or off camera flashes. At which point, one would have more value in getting a far more powerful flash than the 201.
04-23-2015, 01:56 PM   #531
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
A K-3 II body which retained the popup flash AND added internal GPS, WiFi and NFC, would probably not have presented Ricoh with an impossible engineering challenge, and only cost them a few extra bucks.

If I was them, I would have done it, even if it meant adding $100 to the launch price.

That way buyers [and sellers] could easily focus on the other attractive features of the camera, without having to deal with the pros and cons of added/subtracted features, especially when check-listing the camera relative to competitors.
Well then there are two possibilities:
  1. They are benighted idiots and we should all exit the brand posthaste
  2. They know something we don't know and did what they did with a purpose in mind.
04-23-2015, 02:01 PM - 1 Like   #532
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first world problems
04-23-2015, 02:02 PM   #533
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I don't think the flash is crucial. However it is a minus point. A small one. For some the addition of GPS is worth it, for others it isn't. For me, it isn't. I use my phone to record the location, and I'd be surprised if what Pentax uses is as good as my phone. So having it in the camera... not so interested. It would be nicer (for me) if my phone could tell my camera the location for when it is useful for astrophotography. Oh well.

Anyway this isn't a deal breaker. And I doubt it will be for many. But can it hurt sales? Yeah I think so. Maybe for some people the overall package isn't attractive enough anymore.

Keep in mind that especially beginners want to have everything covered in the camera. You don't know what you can live without yet. You may never use it, but it feels good to have it, because it gives a safety net in the what if case.

04-23-2015, 02:03 PM   #534
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For those worried about the one out of every 5,000 shots they may need the pop up flash, just carry a $4 led flashlight in your pocket and shine it in the person's face as you take the picture. The end result will look about the same.
04-23-2015, 02:04 PM   #535
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I wonder just how tight with electronics is the K-3II body?
Although I am no camera designer or engineer, probably not 'mobile phone' tight. Many mobiles of course have GPS, WiFi, NFC and more squeezed into far less space than the internals of a big DSLR body.

I doubt the GPS electronics and antenna needed all the space freed up by removing the flash. Ditto for the WiFi and NFC electronics - as the very compact K-S2 partly illustrates.

Ricoh made it's feature selection based on other factors, I suspect, not space requirements.
04-23-2015, 02:10 PM   #536
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One has to remember that this GPS requirement is partly for the astrotracer AND something that Pentax is already producing. Because otherwise it'll be a significant cost increase to:

a) Make it compatible to the astrotracer software
b) Either source it or produce it

And the easiest way to understand the size is to look at the OGPS-1. Yeah, Pentax probably could have gotten a smaller GPS unit inside the k-3 and fit the flash, but then to guarantee it works with the astrotracer software?
04-23-2015, 02:11 PM   #537
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QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
At which point, one would have more value in getting a far more powerful flash than the 201
That is true except when it isn't - such as all the times OBF is sufficient to the task, as so many have argued at length on these threads. For those people and circumstances the 201 will be just fine as a substitute. And it might be a suitable tool for people who already have a powerful strobe, have an extra $150 in their pocket, and want to carry something small there instead.
04-23-2015, 02:13 PM   #538
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QuoteOriginally posted by kadajawi Quote
I don't think the flash is crucial. However it is a minus point. A small one. For some the addition of GPS is worth it, for others it isn't. For me, it isn't. I use my phone to record the location, and I'd be surprised if what Pentax uses is as good as my phone. So having it in the camera... not so interested. It would be nicer (for me) if my phone could tell my camera the location for when it is useful for astrophotography. Oh well.

Anyway this isn't a deal breaker. And I doubt it will be for many. But can it hurt sales? Yeah I think so. Maybe for some people the overall package isn't attractive enough anymore.

Keep in mind that especially beginners want to have everything covered in the camera. You don't know what you can live without yet. You may never use it, but it feels good to have it, because it gives a safety net in the what if case.
We have the K-S2 for that.
04-23-2015, 02:15 PM   #539
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QuoteOriginally posted by geomez Quote
APSC mirrorless: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Sells like crazy.
K-01 has popup flash
04-23-2015, 02:18 PM   #540
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
It all depends of how you define the function of a shoe mounted flash. This one actually does tilt, from -10 to +135 degrees, which is 145 degrees of tilt more than the built-in flash which it replaces. The AF201FG is not yet available, but once it is available, I'll have to consider one for my Q7. Right now I'm using the ancient Vivitar flash that I got 20+ years ago to use with my Super Program. According to the write-up, the AF201FG also has a pull-out panel for use with wide-angle lenses; my experience with a similar device on a Canon flash suggests that using the panel (also not available with built-in flash) with standard lenses may diffuse the light enough that one flash will be plenty at short range.

Most importantly, most of the complaining I've heard relates to triggering other flashes. This flash would be just fine to do that.
QuoteOriginally posted by mee Quote
I only use the onboard flash for firing off camera flashes or also in the pinch when I just need ANY kind of light (rare). I've learned if you're lighting someone with on camera flash head on, you're often doing it wrong. Gives that awful deer in the headlights look to the lighting. hence the need for bounce or off camera to angle the lighting.

And tell me how many times are you going to be out hiking, shooting a waterfall??? Maybe that was sarcasm though again.. If that is what you want to shoot you will need a MUCH larger flash than the 201 -- that thing is tinyyy.

tool for the job is right.. the 201 is not the tool for any job. (I stand correct the Q7 it might fare better)

But we're talking about the K-3II here.. not the Q7.
Yes, I mentioned Vivitar, Super Program, and Q7, all providing examples which can then be extended to the K-3ii!! (which is the best we can do right now since none of us actually has a K-3ii yet) Plus, I addressed these other issues you raised before you raised them. My last words were about triggering other flashes ... and your first words were about triggering other flashes. Yes, the AF201FG can do everything that the departed built-in flash would have done, including firing off other flashes and it can do some of the things that you would not do with a built-in flash, since it is more diffuse (so less deer-in-headlights look) and can be bounced upward.
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