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04-25-2015, 01:10 PM - 1 Like   #736
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I've thought this over for days, and I've come to the conclusion that removing the flash is such an obvious mistake, that no matter how you stand on your head to rationalize the foolishness of it, it will not go away! I rarely use the on board flash but when I need it it, I really need it, and I'm grateful it's there. Removing such a useful tool and replacing it with a gps (!) seems like a blatant play for the trendies in the gearhead world and ignores real photographers. As for the pixel shifting, if it doesn't output in raw then who cares? Does the K-3ll produce files with more dynamic range than the K-5? That's the big question.

04-25-2015, 01:18 PM   #737
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QuoteOriginally posted by markku55 Quote
I don't agree that there is an improvement between K5 and K3:
I shoot k-5IIs and k-3 side by side. k-3 produces clearly superior images in the real world.

Also, according to Asahiman the Nikon D7200 uses the same sensor as the k-3. D7100 uses a Toshiba processor and came out before k-3. Then k-3 came out with the Sony sensor, then D7200 with Sony sensor, now k-3II with the same sensor. Obviously I cannot prove that but if anyone knows it would be Asahiman.
04-25-2015, 01:24 PM   #738
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I shoot k-5IIs and k-3 side by side. k-3 produces clearly superior images in the real world.
That's your subjective "real world", not mine! Don't mistake the increased resolution of the K-3 for the better dynamic range of the K-5lls.
04-25-2015, 01:25 PM   #739
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The tiny point-source built-in flash cannot serve as a "slave controller" either.
Those who use it as a controller only use a flash which triggers off another flash going off - and any actual flash, including the AF201FG, can provide that trigger.
No, it works as a controller. I guess you have never tried it. Triggering "dumb" slaves is one thing, controlling P-TTL flashes and not contributing to the exposition is another. You cannot use slaves in a P-TTL mode with just any flash as a trigger - it's not going to sync.

04-25-2015, 01:27 PM   #740
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
Removing such a useful tool and replacing it with a gps (!) seems like a blatant play for the trendies in the gearhead world and ignores real photographers.
Ouch! I guess I am not a 'real photographer' then.......

I think the most amazing thing is that with all the new stuff, lenses, cameras, FF announced more stuff coming, the only thing that is getting much traffic is whether there should be a silly flash on board. Obviously this issue has created a lot of polarization in the community. Most of which I'm baffled about. Some used it, some did not. Some people use GPS and some don't. I cursed the lack of on board GPS every time I forgot the O-GPS in my bag. I'm personally delighted that the flash is gone and the GPS is on board.

Granted old school photography did not require location embedded in the EXIF. That is changing and having it in the image automatically is a big deal to some photographers. Real or not.

---------- Post added 04-25-15 at 01:30 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
That's your subjective "real world", not mine! Don't mistake the increased resolution of the K-3 for the better dynamic range of the K-5lls.
Correct. That is my real world. Shooting daily and selling both stock and prints. And I said "clearly superior" not better dynamic range. The k-5IIs does have slightly better DR. If that is the only criteria for evaluation, OK then the k-5IIs is better. I'm still going to continue shooting with the k-3 though, I get more salable images that way.
04-25-2015, 01:45 PM   #741
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I shoot k-5IIs and k-3 side by side. k-3 produces clearly superior images in the real world.

Also, according to Asahiman the Nikon D7200 uses the same sensor as the k-3. D7100 uses a Toshiba processor and came out before k-3. Then k-3 came out with the Sony sensor, then D7200 with Sony sensor, now k-3II with the same sensor. Obviously I cannot prove that but if anyone knows it would be Asahiman.
Same sensor do not mean that the photographic result will be the same, Nikon have succeeded to "take" more out of the Sony sensor than Pentax as you can see from side by side comparison in DxOMark test: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7200-versus-Penta...__1020_914_865
04-25-2015, 01:48 PM - 1 Like   #742
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
Removing such a useful tool and replacing it with a gps (!) seems like a blatant play for the trendies in the gearhead world and ignores real photographers.
I guess that I'm not a real photographer either. Guess that I better call my publishers and tell him that I'm just a gearhead.
04-25-2015, 01:52 PM   #743
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
The tiny point-source built-in flash cannot serve as a "slave controller" either.
Those who use it as a controller only use a flash which triggers off another flash going off - and any actual flash, including the AF201FG, can provide that trigger.
QuoteOriginally posted by jaad75 Quote
No, it works as a controller. I guess you have never tried it. Triggering "dumb" slaves is one thing, controlling P-TTL flashes and not contributing to the exposition is another. You cannot use slaves in a P-TTL mode with just any flash as a trigger - it's not going to sync.
Your comment doesn't make any sense. Which particular flash do you envision as the "P-TTL flash" that you are "controlling" using the tiny point-source built-in flash??
When you use an optical "controller", all you are doing is triggering dumb slaves; the trigger may be P-TTL, but the slaves can be anything, and most of them truly are dumb - they know just enough to play "follow the leader".

And, yes, I have used optical triggering, but I did not like it.


Last edited by reh321; 04-25-2015 at 01:53 PM. Reason: complete the thought
04-25-2015, 01:53 PM   #744
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QuoteOriginally posted by markku55 Quote
Same sensor do not mean that the photographic result will be the same, Nikon have succeeded to "take" more out of the Sony sensor than Pentax as you can see from side by side comparison in DxOMark test: http://www.dxomark.com/Cameras/Compare/Side-by-side/Nikon-D7200-versus-Penta...__1020_914_865
I thought I read someone say that dxo test cameras with default settings and that the highlight correction is by default on in the d7200 so that was skewing results. I don't know if that's true or not, but if someone can confirm this, this may explain the differences in the k3 and d7200.
04-25-2015, 01:54 PM   #745
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QuoteOriginally posted by jeff knight Quote
removing the flash is such an obvious mistake
I agree. Ditto for the new FF. By not including a popup flash, they are simply throwing away a useful tool, and not replacing it with anything.

If Pentax did something clever with flash (maybe introducing in-body radio flash PTTL triggering, and a new radio PTTL flash/controller/trigger set), they might be forgiven.
04-25-2015, 01:59 PM   #746
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QuoteOriginally posted by vagrant10 Quote
I thought I read someone say that dxo test cameras with default settings and that the highlight correction is by default on in the d7200 so that was skewing results. I don't know if that's true or not, but if someone can confirm this, this may explain the differences in the k3 and d7200.
I don't think anyone knows. My guess is that the D7200 has an updated sensor as compared to the K3. Both are Sony sensors and both have 24 megapixels, but Sony makes some sensors that have a lot faster read out speed than the K3 sensor which is only capable of 8-ish fps. As to settings that affect the dxo mark test, I don't think highlight correction affects RAW or actual measured dynamic range for a sensor. DP Review does some weird testing on jpegs, so that would certainly be affected by things like highlight correction, but DXO Mark is supposed to work off of raw files. When companies have tried to fool DXO Mark, it is usually be applying some kind of noise reduction to RAW files.
04-25-2015, 02:05 PM - 1 Like   #747
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
Your comment doesn't make any sense. Which particular flash do you envision as the "P-TTL flash" that you are "controlling" using the tiny point-source built-in flash??
When you use an optical "controller", all you are doing is triggering dumb slaves; the trigger may be P-TTL, but the slaves can be anything, and most of them truly are dumb - they know just enough to play "follow the leader".
With a dumb slave, all you need is a trigger that fires other flashes set to M (or A) - that's what the SL2 mode is for. Basically you just need to set your built in or hot shoe flash to M at low power level and you're ready to go. With a P-TTL controller/slave system you have whole communication protocol - a flash that triggers P-TTL slaves to fire a metering pre-flash, another flash that tells the slaves what power to use (based on camera metering system and exposure parameters) and a sync flash that triggers the slaves at required power level.
04-25-2015, 02:10 PM   #748
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Aside from everything else, D7200 features the newer Nikon EXPEED 4 imaging engine, vs the D7100's EXPEED 3.

It itself was a pretty big change, so no surprise that there were subtle image quality improvements, even if the sensor itself may have stayed the same.
04-25-2015, 02:10 PM   #749
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QuoteOriginally posted by johnmflores Quote
I guess that I'm not a real photographer either. Guess that I better call my publishers and tell him that I'm just a gearhead.
I am pretty real though
04-25-2015, 02:15 PM   #750
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
When companies have tried to fool DXO Mark, it is usually be applying some kind of noise reduction to RAW files.
That is what I have learn Sony is doing to their own cameras and that is something which is destroying their RAW files, means there is no real RAW file anymore. Most of the A7 users are really angry about Sonys way to manipulate their RAW files already in camera.
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