[kenspo]

It seems to me that they are giving up on the apsc format in favor of the full frame.

Not even close!

[jaad75]

Olympus offer this feature, it takes roughly a second, requires a tripod and non moving objects. Any motion causes artifacts. They are working on bringing the shooting time down to 1/60.

How? 8 fullframe exposures in 1/60s means the sensor should be able to go up to 480 fps. The latest 16MPix Sony IMX159 goes up to 23 fps and 20Mpix IMX269 does 27fps...

[mee]

So how do they price the newly released K-S2??
(which, despite being a new product, lags the K-3 in many ways)

You said it.. it is a new product. If you look at the pricing of Pentax digital bodies, you will see a trend of high prices dropping dramatically after the first year. Ricoh mitigated this slightly with the K-3 by seemingly forcing retailers to bundle (as opposed to simply lowering the RP). Once the 'new shiny' in a specific tier is released, the previous body doesn't seem to have the same constraints on pricing.. thus we see the dramatic drops.


As example, The K-5II + 18-135 bundle was around 1200 dollars. A few weeks later, the K-3 was released and I bought the K-5II + 18-135 bundle for 800 dollars!

[ChristianRock]

I was thinking something along those lines, and also that Pentax continues to pursue their own niches and actively avoids going head-to-head with Canikon models on feature sets - even though that is exactly what everyone expects them to do.

If they do that they'll be called a "me too" company.

Doomed if you do, Doomed if you don't.

[mee]

If they do that they'll be called a "me too" company.

Doomed if you do, Doomed if you don't.

haha

well I think there is a careful, fine line to follow of staying true to your niches while also appealing to non-niche buyers with easy to include features. This company seems to use product releases as somewhat of a test launch of features adopted to future products. So R&D is probably not as high when functioning in this manner.

Strict guess is Ricoh conducts surveys to understand the market, then goes after the top few feature sets that they can adopt with the least amount of resources.

One thing I don't understand (but appreciate!) is Ricoh including features in Pentax bodies that were normally accessories (namely the ogps-1 features). If this was Canon or Nikon, it would have stayed as an accessory so they could sell you another gizmo.

We really have a company that is adopting features smartly and functionally and, to me, it seems as if they are doing so in expectation of treating their customers right will pay off in time. Of course they cannot and will not please everyone, but they don't seem to be simply shattering features in order to sell more stuff.

[monochrome]

One thing I don't understand (but appreciate!) is Ricoh including features in Pentax bodies that were normally accessories (namely the ogps-1 features). If this was Canon or Nikon, it would have stayed as an accessory so they could sell you another gizmo.

That's pretty cynical!! This is all about differentiation. Pentax also wants to sell a gismo - an AF201FG Flash to use in place of the OBF.

They've merely altered the expectation set for what's included in the K-3 II purchase price. And people who don't wan that feature mix can always get a K-S2.

[geomez]

The APSC DSLR market seems to be the only one people blow a gasket when they hear a model doesn't have a built in flash.


M43 bodies: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Sells like hotcakes.

APSC mirrorless: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Sells like crazy.

APSC DSLR: OMG, NO BUILT-IN FLASH! THEY WILL SELL ZERO. PENTAX IS DOOMED!

FF mirrorless: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Innovation.

FF DSLR: no built-in flash. All the pros buy them. Everybody else wants them.


A little silly don't you think?

[Rondec]

That's pretty cynical!! This is all about differentiation. Pentax also wants to sell a gismo - an AF201FG Flash to use in place of the OBF.

They've merely altered the expectation set for what's included in the K-3 II purchase price. And people who don't wan that feature mix can always get a K-S2.

Definitely. It used to be that flagship meant weather sealing and penta prism and grip and deeper buffers and more buttons, but over time a lot of those things have eroded and Pentax has to bump the features that they put in top end APS-C (and one day full frame). It isn't enough just to have 8 fps and a 30 shot buffer and the possibility of a grip and sealing, you have to do other things to sweeten the offering and to me, astr tracer is one of those things. Considering that the separate unit costs 200-ish dollars new, it is a pretty good value to get it thrown in for free (considering that a pop up flash probably costs five dollars to stick on an SLR).

[ChristianRock]

The APSC DSLR market seems to be the only one people blow a gasket when they hear a model doesn't have a built in flash.


M43 bodies: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Sells like hotcakes.

APSC mirrorless: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Sells like crazy.

APSC DSLR: OMG, NO BUILT-IN FLASH! THEY WILL SELL ZERO. PENTAX IS DOOMED!

FF mirrorless: no built-in flash. Nobody cares. Innovation.

FF DSLR: no built-in flash. All the pros buy them. Everybody else wants them.


A little silly don't you think?

That is the absolute truth.

I think the thing is, some people just don't like change.

There's other people that post here, that I am pretty sure that they don't have any interest in seeing Pentax succeed, if you know what I mean. But I don't think those are the ones complaining about flash. They're the ones saying the camera completely sucks, that it's no improvement at all, that the 7D mark II is the best APS-C in the market (even though it is not by far, and it is overpriced), etc.

But you really nailed it with this comment.

[reh321]

Yes but as written 201 only takes AAA batteries, and only 2 of them ; whereas 200 takes 4 AA : that makes à huge difference in terms of durability...

Presumably by "durability" you mean length of time until you have to change batteries. I don't know how many flashes you can get on a pair of AAAs. Once someone knows that, he'll know how many he needs to toss into his bag ... but you're right that it would be a (very minor) problem to have to change batteries in the middle of some shoot.

[ChristianRock]

If one will need the flash to last longer, as in a photo shoot - you could always use a different flash, you know Or a flash trigger.

[monochrome]

Yes but as written 201 only takes AAA batteries, and only 2 of them ; whereas 200 takes 4 AA : that makes à huge difference in terms of durability...

Presumably by "durability" you mean length of time until you have to change batteries. I don't know how many flashes you can get on a pair of AAAs. Once someone knows that, he'll know how many he needs to toss into his bag ... but you're right that it would be a (very minor) problem to have to change batteries in the middle of some shoot.

Marketing material claims 80-100 full power flashes. About which I care not. This won't be a flash for heavy-duty use. It is a pocket flash to use with a Q (or K-01) or those extremely rare circumstances when fill-flash is actually necessary with a K-3. I don't need (and I don't believe anyway) the AF200's 400 full-power discharges from a small flash.

FWIW, AF540FGZ II (4 Lithium AA required) is only rated for 100 variable-power flashes, so what's the downside (except the low GN)?

[mee]

That's pretty cynical!! This is all about differentiation. Pentax also wants to sell a gismo - an AF201FG Flash to use in place of the OBF.

They've merely altered the expectation set for what's included in the K-3 II purchase price. And people who don't wan that feature mix can always get a K-S2.

Cynical? not at all. It is (bad) business. Look at all the arsenal of crippled Canon bodies for instance.. they do that simply to grow tiers.

And the AF201FG flash is lacking if one has to use a shoe mounted flash. You're better off getting one that tilts and swivels if you're using flash. The AW doesn't matter because who is using flash in the rain? No, Ricoh has removed a lesser used item to include a more used item for their niche.

[monochrome]

Cynical? not at all. It is (bad) business. Look at all the arsenal of crippled Canon bodies for instance.. they do that simply to grow tiers.

And the AF201FG flash is lacking if one has to use a shoe mounted flash. You're better off getting one that tilts and swivels if you're using flash. The AW doesn't matter because who is using flash in the rain? No, Ricoh has removed a lesser used item to include a more used item for their niche.

Jeebus. I hate it when sarcasm doesn't come across. Did you read down to where I worte about this just being about the expectation set of what comes with a camera?

I would only use OBF for outdoor fill, and then only when I don't have a real strobe in my bag. I can put this little flash in my pocket to cover the tiny chance I would need to shoot into a bright background from shade. The rest of the time I have a used 360FGZ or 540FGZII. And as to WR, who says I wouldn't shoot in the mist from a waterfall or highlight a wet model in the cedars after a rain that I just happen to come across when out hiking?

It's a 'tool for the job' question.

[reh321]

And the AF201FG flash is lacking if one has to use a shoe mounted flash. You're better off getting one that tilts and swivels if you're using flash.

It all depends of how you define the function of a shoe mounted flash. This one actually does tilt, from -10 to +135 degrees, which is 145 degrees of tilt more than the built-in flash which it replaces. The AF201FG is not yet available, but once it is available, I'll have to consider one for my Q7. Right now I'm using the ancient Vivitar flash that I got 20+ years ago to use with my Super Program. According to the write-up, the AF201FG also has a pull-out panel for use with wide-angle lenses; my experience with a similar device on a Canon flash suggests that using the panel (also not available with built-in flash) with standard lenses may diffuse the light enough that one flash will be plenty at short range.

Most importantly, most of the complaining I've heard relates to triggering other flashes. This flash would be just fine to do that.