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04-27-2015, 07:56 AM   #331
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QuoteOriginally posted by bernhardn Quote
I wonder, how manny people will switch from the normal K3 to the K3 ii?
I would give my K3 and a bag of cookies for K3II. No money involved.

04-27-2015, 08:58 AM   #332
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QuoteOriginally posted by reh321 Quote
I would think that connecting something to the hot-shoe would be a very reasonable alternative in a studio setup - that those who need flash out in the field are those who will miss the tiny point-source pop-up flash for setting off their real stuff, and yes, sticking with the K-3 may be the best alternative available to them. My concern is what happens when the full-frame camera eventually is unveiled? .My assumption has been that the K-3ii is kind of a test bed for that setup.
I thought it was clear that FF would get no OBF. Or those pro-OBF will react the same as for k3-II with FF? Although the CanikonSon have no flash either?

Moan, moan but in the end Ricoh will get more Pros and less moaners (this is not specifically wrote to anyone btw).

Unless whining get is the flash back something else less.
04-27-2015, 09:15 AM   #333
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QuoteOriginally posted by bernhardn Quote
I wonder, how manny people will switch from the normal K3 to the K3 ii?
Probably not many...but if you are upgrading from a K-5II or older, this would be a great one to upgrade with.
Or if you are a new consumer. Or if you're looking for a cheaper alternative to the 7Dmk2 (there are plenty of Canon people that like crop sensor cameras for the extra reach for birding and wildlife. The new long DFA lenses give them a new viable option). Or an actual camera as opposed to the non-existant D400.
04-27-2015, 09:58 AM   #334
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QuoteOriginally posted by cali92rs Quote
Probably not many...but if you are upgrading from a K-5II or older, this would be a great one to upgrade with.
Or if you are a new consumer. Or if you're looking for a cheaper alternative to the 7Dmk2 (there are plenty of Canon people that like crop sensor cameras for the extra reach for birding and wildlife. The new long DFA lenses give them a new viable option). Or an actual camera as opposed to the non-existant D400.
Its only an upgrade if you shoot certain specialized types of photography. Even if I had a K-5, I can buy a lightly used K-3 for a couple hundred dollars less than the K-3II. I almost bought a K-3 Prestige with grip for $750 a few months ago. You are going to have the people who just buy the latest and greatest every time and they will sell their slightly used K-3s cheap.

04-27-2015, 10:14 AM   #335
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QuoteOriginally posted by GeneV Quote
As someone early on hinted, Pentax could have blunted a lot of the flash issue by releasing a compact flash which acts as a wireless controller and is more capable. Sony did this when they eliminated he flash from the FF, and eliminated the wireless controller from the flash in the APS-C mirrorless bodies. The Sony flash is small, runs off two AAA batts, bounces, diffuses and controls. Metz made its own version. It slips in a pocket more easily than the first iPhone, and you never miss the popup.

Now, if the smallest flash with these capabilities is the AF360, it is not the same.
I completely agree with this. I figured the AF201FG was the solution - it just hadn't been released yet. I am shocked to discover the AF201FG is not a wirelss controller. How big can the P-TTL strobe control circuitry be?
04-27-2015, 10:23 AM   #336
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
A large majority of shooters will never use their Pentax in a studio flash set-up. Those that do are just incredibly loud about the missing pop-up flash. Just like the I will flash anything I can even when the sun is out crowd. Maybe they could just skip the K-3II (there is no need to upgrade with every new model) en continue using the K-3 which is a perfectly fine camera.
Replace that with pixel shift or Astrotracer and the conclusion remain the same, including to stay with K3/K5/whatever and skiping the K3-II
04-27-2015, 10:25 AM   #337
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
I completely agree with this. I figured the AF201FG was the solution - it just hadn't been released yet. I am shocked to discover the AF201FG is not a wirelss controller. How big can the P-TTL strobe control circuitry be?
That's the point... If flashes were smaller and with reasonable set of feature it would make more sense !
04-27-2015, 10:35 AM   #338
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
I thought it was clear that FF would get no OBF. Or those pro-OBF will react the same as for k3-II with FF? Although the CanikonSon have no flash either?

Moan, moan but in the end Ricoh will get more Pros and less moaners (this is not specifically wrote to anyone btw).

Unless whining get is the flash back something else less.
I wonder how many sales Nikon lost because they put a flash onboard just about every one of their cameras (all but the Df which is a retro failure and the D4 which are owned by photogs who already have $2000 in flash equipment).

I certainly understand Ricoh's rational for the GPS over the OBF in a camera that's trying to feature this pixel-shift technology. I'm just not sure the buying public will understand it as well, though.

04-27-2015, 10:53 AM   #339
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
Replace that with pixel shift or Astrotracer and the conclusion remain the same, including to stay with K3/K5/whatever and skiping the K3-II
Yeah but it does have those and it doesn't have the flash. If they would have put out a K-3 II with no changes, then everybody would be angry about the hitched price. I think pixelshift is something everybody can potentially use. Astrotracing is pretty specific but GPS is handy for cataloguing your pics. I think the flash will be back in the K-2 or K-whatever that follows this one late 2016 or early 2017 because it can be designed into a new body.
04-27-2015, 10:57 AM   #340
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
That's the point... If flashes were smaller and with reasonable set of feature it would make more sense !
The 201 is small enough. It has a reasonable set of features as a substitute for the pop-up light point source. It's just missing the Wireless Master/Slave TTL Functionality.
04-27-2015, 11:00 AM   #341
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QuoteOriginally posted by IchabodCrane Quote
I wonder how many sales Nikon lost because they put a flash onboard just about every one of their cameras (all but the Df which is a retro failure and the D4 which are owned by photogs who already have $2000 in flash equipment).

I certainly understand Ricoh's rational for the GPS over the OBF in a camera that's trying to feature this pixel-shift technology. I'm just not sure the buying public will understand it as well, though.
I think the K-3II is geared towards people that want to take top-level photos, that's why they're buying a flagship. They want to be able to take the best photos possible, and my guess would be those photos almost never contain an pop-up flash. Get a KS2 if it's that important to you. If you get a K-3II because you presumably want to take top quality photos no way in hell you're using the on-board flash.
04-27-2015, 11:30 AM   #342
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The 201 is small enough. It has a reasonable set of features as a substitute for the pop-up light point source. It's just missing the Wireless Master/Slave TTL Functionality.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
I think the K-3II is geared towards people that want to take top-level photos, that's why they're buying a flagship. They want to be able to take the best photos possible, and my guess would be those photos almost never contain an pop-up flash. Get a KS2 if it's that important to you. If you get a K-3II because you presumably want to take top quality photos no way in hell you're using the on-board flash.
My education for the week is that there are people who are very passionate about using the tiny point-source pop-up flash, most of the time as a P-TTL controller for properly equipped flashes. My belief is that this is a primitive system - but they passionately disagree. My belief is that Pentax should be transitioning to an RF-based system, but they passionately disagree. It is unfortunately that Pentax didn't see this coming and provide another flash, 201M perhaps, that is roughly the size of the 201, but provides master capability at a slightly higher price. I hope this is all worked out before the FF is formally introduced, because I expect this to have been a rehearsal for that.

Last edited by reh321; 04-27-2015 at 12:02 PM. Reason: add another "passionately" to properly convey what I'm hearing
04-27-2015, 11:44 AM   #343
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
The 201 is small enough. It has a reasonable set of features as a substitute for the pop-up light point source. It's just missing the Wireless Master/Slave TTL Functionality.
That part that is missing is the part that I use about 90% of the time I use the built-in flash. The 201 is not quite as easy to pocket, and it is a few bucks more, but I would not quibble if it had the P-TTL control capabilities. The little Metz 26 AF-1 can only act as a slave, but that is more than the 201 can do.

If Metz could put the controller into this little flash (which is very similar to the Sony) it would be sweet.


Last edited by GeneV; 04-27-2015 at 12:05 PM.
04-27-2015, 11:50 AM   #344
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
I think the K-3II is geared towards people that want to take top-level photos, that's why they're buying a flagship. They want to be able to take the best photos possible, and my guess would be those photos almost never contain an pop-up flash. Get a KS2 if it's that important to you. If you get a K-3II because you presumably want to take top quality photos no way in hell you're using the on-board flash.
Bunch, you're ignoring the fact that Nikon must feel the OBF is important enough to include it on cameras that cost 2.5x what the K-3 II costs. I'm pretty sure the D810 and D750 are "geared toward people that want to take top-level photos".

As I said earlier, I get why Ricoh might be including GPS instead of OBF and I get they don't want to be Nikon clones. OTOH, I wouldn't totally dismiss Nikon's ability to gauge what the market wants and, in fact, I'd trust it more than Ricoh's ability to do the same.
04-27-2015, 01:19 PM   #345
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QuoteOriginally posted by Bunch Quote
I think the K-3II is geared towards people that want to take top-level photos, that's why they're buying a flagship. They want to be able to take the best photos possible, and my guess would be those photos almost never contain an pop-up flash. Get a KS2 if it's that important to you. If you get a K-3II because you presumably want to take top quality photos no way in hell you're using the on-board flash.
I'am not sure that because you have a flagship you don't want your gear to be conveniant or practical. It is not because you have a flagship you'll only take picture on a tripod and a whole lighting system worth twice the price of the camera... Because you want to take "top-level" photos.

People go hiking, on vacation. They just want to wander arround take a few shoot or keep light! Everybody is different and even the same person will have different need in different conditions.

For me as an example the rationnale for buying K3 was the better AF. I wanted good off center AF point and the K3 AF is incredibly better than K5. I would have had a rationnale to buy a K3-II with a better OBF flash, maybe wifi even, an articulating LCD. I would buy a "limited" body small and light (even with no flash this time) and with EVF but small and light and all metal go with my limited primes.

I'am not interrested at all in pixel shift or astrotracer that 2 things to do with a tripod and while I have a nice one I tend to prefer to take a walk, visit a city and take picture on the go, even taking my time than setting up the tripod. I do have a flash, a Metz and I get it for event and so own but not so much when I'am on vacation. It the onboard flash can help me I'am not going to despise it, even counting I paid high money for my camera. I don't see paying high money as an argument to have less in fact. This doesn't seems that logical to me.

So the question is more what is more interresting to bundle... We will see what people do prefer... Time will tell. And we will see if Pentax stop adding OBF or not in future bodies.

Last edited by Nicolas06; 04-27-2015 at 01:34 PM.
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