[jaad75]

A large majority of shooters will never use their Pentax in a studio flash set-up.

You don't need a P-TTL master/controller in studio, cause studio strobes are straight manual devices and majority of users trigger them with radio triggers, not pop-up flash (in the past, Pentax cameras didn't even allow you to use a pop-up flash in M mode, which was required for most dumb slaves to sync). P-TTL master/controller is handy with quick off-camera flash setups when you don't have all your flash equipment with you or in dynamic situations where a P-TTL off-camera flash is just easier and quicker to use than a manual "dumb" slave.

---------- Post added 04-27-2015 at 03:37 PM ----------

My belief is that this is a primitive system - but they passionately disagree

No, your belief was that this is just a primitive optical triggering, not a P-TTL master/controller mode. That was the point of "passionate disagreeing".

My belief is that Pentax should be transitioning to an RF-based system, but they passionately disagree.

Who? They definitely should design the RF system, but they have not, so far...

It is unfortunately that Pentax didn't see this coming and provide another flash, 201M perhaps, that is roughly the size of the 201, but provides master capability at a slightly higher price.

For now, that would be the best solution.

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Last edited by jaad75; 04-27-2015 at 01:38 PM.

[derekkite]

You don't need a P-TTL master/controller in studio, cause studio strobes are straight manual devices and majority of users trigger them with radio triggers, not pop-up flash (in the past, Pentax cameras didn't even allow you to use a pop-up flash in M mode, which was required for most dumb slaves to sync). P-TTL master/controller is handy with quick off-camera flash setups when you don't have all your flash equipment with you or in dynamic situations where a P-TTL off-camera flash is just easier and quicker to use than a manual "dumb" slave.

---------- Post added 04-27-2015 at 03:37 PM ----------

No, your belief was that this is just a primitive optical triggering, not a P-TTL master/controller mode. That was the point of "passionate disagreeing".
Who? They definitely should design the RF system, but they have not, so far...
For now, that would be the best solution.

An improvement over a small flash would be a multi-directional infra red band trigger. It could be very small and would be used for controlling remote slaves. Multi directional would fix some of the positioning issues with optical slaves.

[repaap]

OmG! Huge debate over that little OBF. And not having it. You guys really think that guys at ricoh are not thinkingof how to do it? It will be just fine. And yes. I have used on my OBF for triggering a flash. But if I wan't to really do it well I want to use proper flash instead. Just my experiences so far. I like possibility to use Manual mode with K-3 flash, but it is more quess and hope kind of thing. I know that I will not miss OBF if they did same thing with coming FF camera(which I'm waiting for).

[reh321]

Who? They definitely should design the RF system, but they have not, so far...
For now, that would be the best solution.

When I mentioned RF triggering, several people told me very passionately and clearly that RF has serious issues when compared to the current system. Frankly, I'm not sure we'll ever get everyone to agree on anything.

[rawr]

Hopefully this debate about the removal of on-board flash is giving Ricoh something to think about. People use popup for a variety of real photographic tasks and circumstances.

[sholtzma]

I'll throw my two cents in. Had the K-3II had an onboard flash, I would have given serious consideration to adding it as a second body. But I definitely do use OBF for a variety of purposes and prefer that my camera have one. I'm not flustered that this body doesn't have a flash. I just hope that in the future I can get a Pentax body (with advanced features) that does have one. It appears that the FF will not have one.

An alternative would have been for Ricoh to introduce two versions of the K-3II, say also a K-3IIf. The f version could have kept the flash and lost the GPS/astrotracer.

[noelpolar]

Like some above, I use my K3'ish camera on vacation a couple of months of the year. I'll find the GPS somewhat useful for trying to remember some of the locations of my shots for sure.

However I'm not taking my main flash with me on these trips, so in time, as I upgrade my cameras, the loss of the OBF is ….. well…..probably best categorised as annoying. Won't make me swap brands…. but does mean I'll have one less prime with me if I want to use the bag space for a small flash……definitely need some fill flash for those night time river cruises and happy tourist faces….etc

[mee]

Hopefully this debate about the removal of on-board flash is giving Ricoh something to think about. People use popup for a variety of real photographic tasks and circumstances.

While other people would rather not have an on-board flash it meant otherwise removing the astrotracer. 2 sides to that coin..

I think we've simply broke into the comfort level of people used to seeing an obf.. now it is not present on this new body and the sky is now falling for a few.

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Last edited by mee; 04-27-2015 at 06:29 PM.

[GeneV]

It is unfortunately that Pentax didn't see this coming and provide another flash, 201M perhaps, that is roughly the size of the 201, but provides master capability at a slightly higher price. I hope this is all worked out before the FF is formally introduced, because I expect this to have been a rehearsal for that.

It does not need to be a higher price. Sony does it for less than the price of the AF 201, and Bolt builds a larger flash with wireless P-TTL control for less money. If they are going to delete a feature that has been included for almost a decade, they should be very reasonable about the price.

---------- Post added 04-27-15 at 06:53 PM ----------

While other people would rather not have an on-board flash it meant otherwise removing the astrotracer. 2 sides to that coin..

I think we've simply broke into the comfort level of people used to seeing an obf.. now it is not present on this new body and the sky is now falling for a few.

Still bet there are a whole lot more people who need a flash than an astrotracer.

---------- Post added 04-27-15 at 06:55 PM ----------

An improvement over a small flash would be a multi-directional infra red band trigger. It could be very small and would be used for controlling remote slaves. Multi directional would fix some of the positioning issues with optical slaves.

Maybe, but they did not give us that either.

[rawr]

While other people would rather not have an on-board flash it meant otherwise removing the astrotracer.

It needn't have been either/or, I'm sure.

[IchabodCrane]

While other people would rather not have an on-board flash it meant otherwise removing the astrotracer. 2 sides to that coin..

I think we've simply broke into the comfort level of people used to seeing an obf.. now it is not present on this new body and the sky is now falling for a few.

I think the issue some bring forward is different than you describe. With a GPS/astrotracer, you know well in advance when you're going to want to use it. Accordingly, you know to bring it with you on those occasions. The OBF is different as you often don't know in advance when you need some flash lighting so you're stuck either bringing a flash unit around all of the time (despite not using it much) or risk being caught with it. Well, anyway I think that's the crux of the issue around non-equivalence of the GPS and the OBF.

[reh321]

Bolt builds a larger flash with wireless P-TTL control for less money.

The only possibly-useful Bolt-made flash I could find at B&H is the VS-510P. Is that the one you are referring to? The description doesn't make clear whether it can be used as a master. The price listed for it is $30 more than the Pentax AF201FG and weighs at least twice as much.

[mee]

Still bet there are a whole lot more people who need a flash than an astrotracer.

Need a flash and use the popup flash are two different stories. I still bet there are a whole lot more people don't use use the popup flash.

---------- Post added 04-27-15 at 10:00 PM ----------

It needn't have been either/or, I'm sure.

You are 100% sure? The camera isn't even out yet.. how can you be 100% sure?

---------- Post added 04-27-15 at 10:04 PM ----------

I think the issue some bring forward is different than you describe. With a GPS/astrotracer, you know well in advance when you're going to want to use it. Accordingly, you know to bring it with you on those occasions. The OBF is different as you often don't know in advance when you need some flash lighting so you're stuck either bringing a flash unit around all of the time (despite not using it much) or risk being caught with it. Well, anyway I think that's the crux of the issue around non-equivalence of the GPS and the OBF.

With a flash you know well in advance if you are going to want to use it or not too. You either bring it or you don't. In the case of a popup flash you are always, regardless of using it or not bringing it. So perhaps most don't even think about it. Take it for granted being there.

However, planning and not planning is the issue here it seems. The real core crux of the issue. In the future, you'll just have to think your photo shoots through a bit more in advance (plan) or carry a flash on you just in case instead of relying on the safety net of the obf always being there at the ready.

---------- Post added 04-27-15 at 10:10 PM ----------

The only possibly-useful Bolt-made flash I could find at B&H is the VS-510P. Is that the one you are referring to? The description doesn't make clear whether it can be used as a master. The price listed for it is $30 more than the Pentax AF201FG and weighs at least twice as much.

It also tilts and swivels, supports HSS, and has a much larger flash head (softer light, gels, and other modifiers support) and larger GN rating.

the obf is like the training wheels flash..

[thibs]

That part that is missing is the part that I use about 90% of the time I use the built-in flash. The 201 is not quite as easy to pocket, and it is a few bucks more, but I would not quibble if it had the P-TTL control capabilities. The little Metz 26 AF-1 can only act as a slave, but that is more than the 201 can do.

If Metz could put the controller into this little flash (which is very similar to the Sony) it would be sweet.

As much as I think the obf issue is overblown, as much I agree here. Ricoh should get us a small/micro master flash or at least a controller like Canon does/used to do.

[Nicolas06]

You are 100% sure? The camera isn't even out yet.. how can you be 100% sure?

WitYou really think Pentax is so dumb as designing things that it would be impossible ever for them to design a body with both feature even if it make the body slightly bigger? I didn't knew you had so low opinion of Pentax/Ricoh.

With a flash you know well in advance if you are going to want to use it or not too. You either bring it or you don't. In the case of a popup flash you are always, regardless of using it or not bringing it. So perhaps most don't even think about it. Take it for granted being there.


However, planning and not planning is the issue here it seems. The real core crux of the issue. In the future, you'll just have to think your photo shoots through a bit more in advance (plan) or carry a flash on you just in case instead of relying on the safety net of the obf always being there at the ready.

Some people go on vacations and so own. I can understand you ideal for such activities is to always add an external flash to your bag for the cases where you need it or forbid yourself to use the onboard flash. That your practice. This is not necessarily the practices of all other photographers.

All camera now take great top-quality pictures, including a K10D if your are not using high iso or needing ultimate AF. The sales for camera decrease each years. If you want your clients to upgrade, you need to offer more, practical things. The astrotracer and pixel shift is 2 steps in the right direction. The removal of the flash is a step in the wrong direction. Not having taken the opportunity to bundle wifi is another strange decision.

It also tilts and swivels, supports HSS, and has a much larger flash head (softer light, gels, and other modifiers support) and larger GN rating.

the obf is like the training wheels flash..

That's why an improved OBF would have been much more senssible. Boost to 20GN, allow it to bounce and you would have increased your sales of cameras.