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05-10-2015, 02:33 PM   #601
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I didn't bring up about the AF points to start arguments. I just wanted to understand why there is such a huge difference from what the Canon D7 Mark II and the Pentax K-3ii has and what the advantages are of having so many AF points. My sister who has the 7Dii shoots a lot of wildlife (birds, dragonflies, hummingbirds, owls) so maybe to track all that movement you need a lot of AF points, I'm not sure. I posed the question hoping that someone could help me better understand this. I love my K-5 and plan on buying the K-3ii since overall it seems to be quite a bit better in just about every regard. Some features are important to some people and other features are not (as with some people's disappointment with the lack of flash). I have used the pop-up flash on my K-5 but it's not a big deal to me not to have one on the K-3ii; but accurate, fast autofocus is important to me. As for AF-C, I haven't used it much in the past, but find myself using it more and more. And, I think, this is where more AF points may be beneficial and not so much for just a single shot. Correct me if I'm wrong.

05-10-2015, 02:42 PM   #602
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QuoteOriginally posted by Jool Quote
I didn't bring up about the AF points to start arguments.
This isn't an argument, it is a pleasant discussion. If you want to see an argument I can point you to some threads

You asked a good question and I know I have learned a bit from the discussion. I've never used anything but Pentax so maybe for me it is a case of not knowing what I am missing. That's fine, I am trying to learn. Maybe someday I'll need to know how to use all those AF points.
05-10-2015, 04:16 PM   #603
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
I'am not that sure the latest sigma/tamron high end offering is that bad.
exactly..that's why I wonder how the Sigma S 150-600 compare to the 150-450 at 450mm..some say its the same?? of course no Pentax mount,but to test on D7200 is the same as the K3,as same sensor..
its good there are many options available..
05-10-2015, 04:17 PM   #604
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QuoteOriginally posted by Shanti Quote
exactly..that's why I wonder how the Sigma S 150-600 compare to the 150-450 at 450mm..some say its the same?? of course no Pentax mount,but to test on D7200 is the same as the K3,as same sensor..
its good there are many options available..
Thibs measured the AF of the Sigma 150-600 on the D700 during a camera show and said that the AF is "pedestrian" when compared to the K3 + 150-450...hope that helps

05-10-2015, 04:35 PM   #605
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
Thibs measured the AF of the Sigma 150-600 on the D700 during a camera show and said that the AF is "pedestrian" when compared to the K3 + 150-450...hope that helps
Isn't the D7200 AF much better than D700??
but I think I found a place to get the 150-450 at just a bit more than SIgma Sport so its a no brainer then!! just wish I could hold/test it 1st,but not possible here... I wonder if Pentax had a better presence,how much more they could sell
05-10-2015, 11:33 PM   #606
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QuoteOriginally posted by Stavri Quote
I own the Art 18-35/f1.8 the frogegg bokeh under strong specular lights is the proof
This one is known for that issue but that's one lense, not so expensive one, a zoom in the wide angle to normal range... It's not the easiest and sigma is by far providing the best 18-35 f/1.8 zoom as it the only one. Not like Canikon or Pentax have something that compete with it. So on that type of lenses we must admit that sigma win.

Many Pentax lenses are not perfect in bokeh (for ex straight blades or a visible circle in bokeh highlights). To me your point was not if there one lesser lenses that could be find for a brand but more the inability for 3th party vendor to provide good lenses and good bokeh. We were in particular speaking of 70-200 or 150-450... I'am curious to see if the latest 70-200 from sigma has the terrible bokeh you describe.
05-10-2015, 11:49 PM   #607
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
My point is many if not most of dSLR consumers don't know about anything other than snapshots and taking pictures of cats and dogs and soccer games - and they don't use tracking AF for the soccer games.

But they know the difference between 65 and 27 so they buy the 'better' camera, even though they'll never use more than one AF point.

I wish there was a real study of consumer behavior around dSLR's. I really believe enthusiasts and professionals would make rational feature / benefit / cost decisions about how these feature mixes contribute to final output - but camera manufacturers are forced by market economies to make cameras for consumers, who respond to false claims of utility..
You have some hypothesis on how the average flagship APSC DSLR buyer behave (D7200, K3-II, 7D Mk II...). For you their usage is very basic and so they don't need that advanced AF.

First I'am not sure it is the reality and that most flagship DLSR users do not use AF-C and don't need it.

Second then to me that's more a mistake then. If the users of this kind of gear don't need the advanced features they could buy a cheaper version.

Third, one might want to buy gear that allow him to grow. It might be better decision to buy a K3 now for a bit more and getting everything except pixel shift than making a bargain on a slightly cheaper K-S2 and then buying a K3-II in 1 year to get better AF. I would agree Nikon would be a better choice for that as all their flagship have good AF while Pentax still need progress.
05-11-2015, 02:34 AM   #608
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You don't understand American consumer motivation - then again, maybe America doesn't matter to Pentax. What people think and say about their needs and intentions when they buy gear and what they actually do with it are completely different things.

But whatever. I don't think Pentax should leave anything off; they should make AF competitive with the best. At least that way the on-line spec researchers can't dismiss Pentax out-of-hand.

05-11-2015, 02:53 AM   #609
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
You have some hypothesis on how the average flagship APSC DSLR buyer behave (D7200, K3-II, 7D Mk II...). For you their usage is very basic and so they don't need that advanced AF.

First I'am not sure it is the reality and that most flagship DLSR users do not use AF-C and don't need it.

Second then to me that's more a mistake then. If the users of this kind of gear don't need the advanced features they could buy a cheaper version.

Third, one might want to buy gear that allow him to grow. It might be better decision to buy a K3 now for a bit more and getting everything except pixel shift than making a bargain on a slightly cheaper K-S2 and then buying a K3-II in 1 year to get better AF. I would agree Nikon would be a better choice for that as all their flagship have good AF while Pentax still need progress.
I think the real question is how much benefit the extra auto focus points offer with regard to performance. Stick 300 auto focus points on the K3 might make tracking better, but how much better than 35 or 65? And the down side is that manually choosing a focus point becomes more difficult. Beyond which, in order to truly get good tracking, you need adequate lenses, which is to say, I guess currently you need the 150-450 or the 70-200. SDM lenses are going to keep up with most sports, however many focus points you stick in your camera.

A lot of features are thrown in like extra megapixels -- not because people need them or use them, but because people know inherently that more is better. The K20 had 16 metering segments, the K7 had 77 and the K3 has 86,000. There is no doubt that there were lots of problems with the older cameras with the metering system being fooled by small by bright points of light, but there is probably some number of segments between 77 and 86,000 after which there is little benefit to adding more segments.

In the end, Pentax needs to sell cameras and they will add "features" and try to make sure that their cameras stack up well against the competition. I just don't think that a lot of these features actually give a lot of benefit to the majority of photographers.
05-11-2015, 03:42 AM   #610
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think the real question is how much benefit the extra auto focus points offer with regard to performance. Stick 300 auto focus points on the K3 might make tracking better, but how much better than 35 or 65? And the down side is that manually choosing a focus point becomes more difficult. Beyond which, in order to truly get good tracking, you need adequate lenses, which is to say, I guess currently you need the 150-450 or the 70-200. SDM lenses are going to keep up with most sports, however many focus points you stick in your camera.

A lot of features are thrown in like extra megapixels -- not because people need them or use them, but because people know inherently that more is better. The K20 had 16 metering segments, the K7 had 77 and the K3 has 86,000. There is no doubt that there were lots of problems with the older cameras with the metering system being fooled by small by bright points of light, but there is probably some number of segments between 77 and 86,000 after which there is little benefit to adding more segments.

In the end, Pentax needs to sell cameras and they will add "features" and try to make sure that their cameras stack up well against the competition. I just don't think that a lot of these features actually give a lot of benefit to the majority of photographers.
We think that more has a cost. This is far from being true.

A sensor with 2MP or 50MP is basically the same thing in term of cost at the sensor level. This is also true for metering (another sensor) and even AF if you have enough volume 300AF points aren't going to cost much more than 11.

The software investement is costly but again it is not clear if working with 64 AF point isn't easier than with 11. The more information you have, the easier it is to deduce what to do. With more advenced hardware you may indeed need less software expertise for the same result.


In 5 years from now all Pentax camera may have more than 100AF points, more than 50MP, very advanced meetering too. Making a camera with less AF point, more basic metering and less MP might indeed be more costly because the old parts are no longer available. And it would not sell...
05-11-2015, 04:46 AM - 1 Like   #611
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
And it would not sell...
Canon 6D, with it's 'ancient' 11 AF points (and only one cross-type), has been a best seller for Canon ... Probably the best selling FF in the world at the moment.
05-11-2015, 05:10 AM   #612
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Excellent point.
That's when you hear this kind of argument, that you actually measure real life unfairness of Pentax's detractors....
05-11-2015, 06:54 AM   #613
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QuoteOriginally posted by Nicolas06 Quote
This one is known for that issue but that's one lense, not so expensive one, a zoom in the wide angle to normal range... It's not the easiest and sigma is by far providing the best 18-35 f/1.8 zoom as it the only one. Not like Canikon or Pentax have something that compete with it. So on that type of lenses we must admit that sigma win.

Many Pentax lenses are not perfect in bokeh (for ex straight blades or a visible circle in bokeh highlights). To me your point was not if there one lesser lenses that could be find for a brand but more the inability for 3th party vendor to provide good lenses and good bokeh. We were in particular speaking of 70-200 or 150-450... I'am curious to see if the latest 70-200 from sigma has the terrible bokeh you describe.
I wouldn't consider the 18-35/f1.8 cheap, I bought it as soon as it came out and its the reason I don't currently own a 31 ltd. The Pentax bokeh problem that you mention is also known as the Zeiss bokeh problem, and its due to the SMC -T* coating pedigree. I don't see a lot of Zeiss users complain about their $$$$ lens bokeh, Below is an Otus 55 and the DA* 55, notice the similarities in their rendering

05-11-2015, 07:45 AM - 1 Like   #614
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Canon 6D, with it's 'ancient' 11 AF points (and only one cross-type), has been a best seller for Canon ... Probably the best selling FF in the world at the moment.
Never let facts get in the middle of a good discussion.
05-11-2015, 08:06 AM   #615
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QuoteOriginally posted by rawr Quote
Canon 6D, with it's 'ancient' 11 AF points (and only one cross-type), has been a best seller for Canon ... Probably the best selling FF in the world at the moment.
Hum I really wonder what questionnable feature this 6D got that may not be necessary to take snapshoots that made it sell so well? Something related to sensor size maybe?

This is always the same story this camera is perfect you can make 1 first buy the 6D because it is FF and you need FF for your cat photos and then a few years after you buy an FF with a few real feature because you need them !
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