The Next Generation?

Okami · 06-09-2008, 01:05 PM

Love this discussion.

The higher iso and the faster AF are my main choices. Megapixel battle will always rule over all but eventually it's going to lose some of its luster as photos get BIGGER and BIGGER and people realize that its now worth having 12 pics fill a whole cd. Hopefully as that slows advances in quality will start ruling over it

While purest probably don't agree with me I see a lot of room for integrating things within the body as chips become smaller and smaller. Wifi built in to transmit picture data on the fly? (without those wifi sd cards). Pocket Wizard ability right in the cameras and flash? HDR automatically processed? While these may not be real enhancement in the actual photos taken with the camera I think they could greatly help in workflow aspects of it.

regken · 06-09-2008, 03:14 PM

Originally posted by Richard Day

As you say, it will be interesting to see if they do announce their intentions sooner rather than later, but I expect the next release to be an entry point base model rather than anything as ambitious as a FF body. But they may feel the need to make their intentions clear for marketing reasons.

Richard,
Normally I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you but the Ned Burnell interview was very emphatic on stating the K200D is Pentax's entry level body. He said the intention is to keep the Pentax name out of the big boxes so that specialty shops would be willing to up sell customers to a K200D that would better serve them in preparing to jump to a more robust model. This is similar to what Sony is doing with their more expensive models and their S.U.R.E, program.

That sounds like a good game plan, or one heck of a spin as to why they don't have an entry level priced unit. If they do come out with a low priced unit we'll know Ned was saying what he had to and Pentax is just trying to do the best they can with the limited amount of money Hoya is willing to let them spend on R & D. If we don't see a low cost unit it will be a good indication of Pentax's long term game plan, which as Ned said is to develop bodies that appeal to a niche market.

My guess is that niche is not faster AF which is more main stream than say a higher resolution, low noise at low ISO settings, and more DR. Somewhat closer to what Ben wants than what a "Soccer Mom" is looking for. The DSLR market has reached a size in the last year that warrants more niche type products. Personally I hope Ned was being straight in the interview and this is where Pentax is heading. The idea of owning bodies from several manufacturers for different types of shooting doesn't bother me at all.

It may take Pentax another year to come out with the next APS-C body and I expect it to emphasis resolution, low noise at low ISO numbers and better DR as opposed to better and faster AF. Samsung is driving the bus on the FF body so that will come along as soon as they can put it together.

Ken

Jonson PL · 06-09-2008, 03:26 PM

Thanks for your thoughts, Ben.

I don’t think Pentax will announce FF camera, at Photokina in September 2008.
They need a speed camera with fps, to match the specs of A700, E3, Eos 40D and D300.

One day they will have a FF in the line-up, and it would be sweet to use e.g. the 31 lmt. at designed focal length.

Sleepy · 06-09-2008, 05:47 PM

As long as there is a big improvement on the low light AF, that's the next generation I have been waiting for.

I know the improvement on FF, more pixel, iso, live view, or high DR would probably bring Pentax more new DSLR users and more MONEY than improved AF would.
However, if Pentax would like to retain some Pentax users like me and some of my friends, improved AF is a MUST on the next generation.

cputeq · 06-09-2008, 06:29 PM

Improved AF.
Faster FPS burst.
Greater Burst Buffer
Concurrent shooting / writing to memory cards.

Keep beginner model 10MP but add second edial.
Keep and improve on the 14MP for the "promatuer" model.

-------

I'm betting much of their R&D went to perfecting the 14MP sensor. Next iteration, hopefully, the AF will be overhauled.

Donald · 06-09-2008, 09:11 PM

"Next generation" or "...September 2008". What comes in September 2008 is of minimal interest as it probably will be iterative improvements; "next generation" is of great interest as it is open and unknown.

Next generation I would like to see a more "open source" camera with ability to user program any unique shooting feature sets possible and call up or cancel at button push. For example: shoot series with successively different ISO's or different metering modes. The example is not important, the ability to custom program is important. Really, really good software applications give you this ability by allowing access to data all the time; conversely, poor software locks you out of data often for unexplainable reasons. All cameras, that I'm aware of, follow this poor model; different models may have more or better features, none give it all up for you to completely program your own.

It is only through this more "open source" camera that I'll get my programmable, accurate, shot counter that I so desparately want, instead of the laughably always wrong best guess shot remaining thingy.

Also, in the "next generation" department, I foresee tighter interoperability with photo software applications. Example, ability to upload from Adobe / Capture# / Lightroom / Silky / Gimp / PSP etc. special features you prepare within those applications to enhance succeeding post processing tasks. Alternately, as portable devices use Windows lite, CE, Palm, Apple OS, so too will next generation cameras again allowing significant user programmability.

Richard Day · 06-10-2008, 01:37 AM

Originally posted by regken

Richard,
Normally I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you but the Ned Burnell interview was very emphatic on stating the K200D is Pentax's entry level body. He said the intention is to keep the Pentax name out of the big boxes so that specialty shops would be willing to up sell customers to a K200D that would better serve them in preparing to jump to a more robust model. This is similar to what Sony is doing with their more expensive models and their S.U.R.E, program.

That sounds like a good game plan, or one heck of a spin as to why they don't have an entry level priced unit. If they do come out with a low priced unit we'll know Ned was saying what he had to and Pentax is just trying to do the best they can with the limited amount of money Hoya is willing to let them spend on R & D. If we don't see a low cost unit it will be a good indication of Pentax's long term game plan, which as Ned said is to develop bodies that appeal to a niche market.

My guess is that niche is not faster AF which is more main stream than say a higher resolution, low noise at low ISO settings, and more DR. Somewhat closer to what Ben wants than what a "Soccer Mom" is looking for. The DSLR market has reached a size in the last year that warrants more niche type products. Personally I hope Ned was being straight in the interview and this is where Pentax is heading. The idea of owning bodies from several manufacturers for different types of shooting doesn't bother me at all.

It may take Pentax another year to come out with the next APS-C body and I expect it to emphasis resolution, low noise at low ISO numbers and better DR as opposed to better and faster AF. Samsung is driving the bus on the FF body so that will come along as soon as they can put it together.

Ken

Deciding to back specialist dealers doesn't mean you shouldn't have differentiated "niche" offerings at similar price points. The K200D is Pentax's entry camera "at the moment", and a great one at that, but that doesn't mean there won't be a lower model soon.

As Canon have just launched their 1000D, the independent specialist stores that don't want to go with Canon (we do have a few here in the UK!) will need the lower priced entry point camera.

I'm certain that one will be introduced in time for Photokina, if not before. I actually believe it's fairly close.

What happens further down the line is less clear, but I'm pretty convinced there will be a higher spec APS-C body announced before PMA and maybe even at Photokina. Pentax may decide to make their future plans regarding further bodies and other formats clear by PMA, but I suspect they would only do so if they feel it's absolutely neccessary to keep the faithful, but I think caution will prevail.

But I'll put money on an entry body by Photokina, and I'm a tightwad!

I also think we will see some more mockup lenses and maybe even the long awaited 60-250 actually appear in reality, and, as a very long shot, a mockup of the model above the K20D, but I wouldn't bet on anything more than that.

ftpaddict · 06-10-2008, 01:45 AM

Canon will not introduce an even lower spec'd camera. The old generation of EOS XXXD becomes their entry level offer.

Asahiflex · 06-10-2008, 01:48 AM

Originally posted by ftpaddict

Canon will not introduce an even lower spec'd camera. The old generation of EOS XXXD becomes their entry level offer.

Maybe you have missed the news... The Canon 1000D is already officially announced!

ftpaddict · 06-10-2008, 03:34 AM

Originally posted by Asahiflex

Maybe you have missed the news... The Canon 1000D is already officially announced!

I saw it right after I made that post. Too lazy to delete it now. Ah well...

xand · 06-10-2008, 06:28 AM

Originally posted by Sleepy

As long as there is a big improvement on the low light AF, that's the next generation I have been waiting for.

I know the improvement on FF, more pixel, iso, live view, or high DR would probably bring Pentax more new DSLR users and more MONEY than improved AF would.
However, if Pentax would like to retain some Pentax users like me and some of my friends, improved AF is a MUST on the next generation.

+++

Faster AF is mandatory for me to stick with the system - especially in a world where the 40D costs less than the K20D.

thePiRaTE!! · 06-10-2008, 09:03 AM

Though I doubt they would ever do it, I rather wish one could simply buy swappable sensors and keep the body going forever (like the m8). I don't even use any autofocus and would gladly keep the same body forever if I could just keep upgrading the sensor.

My little dream? That Pentax announce the larger sensor, along with the release of the FF compatible DA*60-250

Tom M · 06-10-2008, 09:43 AM

The key to future cameras is currently being showcased in the 60fps 6mp Casio Exilim Pro EX-F1 that you can buy today.

In the future there will be further blurring of the lines between still and video and the resulting cameras will be based off of the technology currently displayed by the Exilim EX-F1 but with far greater capability. Expect the 60 fps shooting of the Casio to be expanded to resolutions at 10mp, then 12-14mp and of course, higher still reaching 20mp. All the while the 1200fps capability will grow to reach 6mp, 10mp, 12mp, etc, etc..

In the near future you will buy one single imaging device which has greatly expanded on the Casio's capabilities.

Not Registered · 06-10-2008, 09:49 AM

To me niche doesnt mean FF, fast AF...

To me niche means 67D, or infrared/UV cameras (it would be neat a sensor where you could put the filters that you wish), or watersealed (not only weathersealed)cameras, street minicameras/pancakes (similar to Olympus)... The only thing that concerns me about that is that you cant afford to have QC issues being a niche player, you really have to be reliable to convince the people to pay extra for them.

Adam67 · 06-10-2008, 10:29 AM

When it comes to megapixels when is enough enough? I remember my first digital camera had 3mp (I skipped the big 2mp generation). My next one had 4. Then my brother bought an 8 (Way ahead of the curve) and I thought that was CRAZY! Huge files and slow to download and edit and print; not to mention you could not get very many on a 512mb card.

Now I have 10.2 on my K200D and it's no big deal. My computers are much faster and so are the usb connections. Working with RAW files this size 8 years ago would have been a nightmare.....but now...no big deal.....and that's on my laptop.

Computers are getting faster & faster. Hard dives (and portable solid state media) are getting bigger & bigger (capacity wise)

When is enough enough? What does it take to reproduce poster sized images with no loss in resolution?

06-09-2008, 03:14 PM	#17
regken Veteran Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangor, Maine Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,377	Originally posted by Richard Day As you say, it will be interesting to see if they do announce their intentions sooner rather than later, but I expect the next release to be an entry point base model rather than anything as ambitious as a FF body. But they may feel the need to make their intentions clear for marketing reasons. Richard, Normally I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you but the Ned Burnell interview was very emphatic on stating the K200D is Pentax's entry level body. He said the intention is to keep the Pentax name out of the big boxes so that specialty shops would be willing to up sell customers to a K200D that would better serve them in preparing to jump to a more robust model. This is similar to what Sony is doing with their more expensive models and their S.U.R.E, program. That sounds like a good game plan, or one heck of a spin as to why they don't have an entry level priced unit. If they do come out with a low priced unit we'll know Ned was saying what he had to and Pentax is just trying to do the best they can with the limited amount of money Hoya is willing to let them spend on R & D. If we don't see a low cost unit it will be a good indication of Pentax's long term game plan, which as Ned said is to develop bodies that appeal to a niche market. My guess is that niche is not faster AF which is more main stream than say a higher resolution, low noise at low ISO settings, and more DR. Somewhat closer to what Ben wants than what a "Soccer Mom" is looking for. The DSLR market has reached a size in the last year that warrants more niche type products. Personally I hope Ned was being straight in the interview and this is where Pentax is heading. The idea of owning bodies from several manufacturers for different types of shooting doesn't bother me at all. It may take Pentax another year to come out with the next APS-C body and I expect it to emphasis resolution, low noise at low ISO numbers and better DR as opposed to better and faster AF. Samsung is driving the bus on the FF body so that will come along as soon as they can put it together. Ken Last edited by regken; 06-09-2008 at 03:23 PM.

06-10-2008, 09:43 AM	#28
Tom M Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Lincoln Park, NJ Photos: Gallery Posts: 780	The key to future cameras is currently being showcased in the 60fps 6mp Casio Exilim Pro EX-F1 that you can buy today. In the future there will be further blurring of the lines between still and video and the resulting cameras will be based off of the technology currently displayed by the Exilim EX-F1 but with far greater capability. Expect the 60 fps shooting of the Casio to be expanded to resolutions at 10mp, then 12-14mp and of course, higher still reaching 20mp. All the while the 1200fps capability will grow to reach 6mp, 10mp, 12mp, etc, etc.. In the near future you will buy one single imaging device which has greatly expanded on the Casio's capabilities. Last edited by Tom M; 06-10-2008 at 10:27 AM.

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06-09-2008, 01:05 PM	#16
Okami Veteran Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Georgia Posts: 376	Love this discussion. The higher iso and the faster AF are my main choices. Megapixel battle will always rule over all but eventually it's going to lose some of its luster as photos get BIGGER and BIGGER and people realize that its now worth having 12 pics fill a whole cd. Hopefully as that slows advances in quality will start ruling over it While purest probably don't agree with me I see a lot of room for integrating things within the body as chips become smaller and smaller. Wifi built in to transmit picture data on the fly? (without those wifi sd cards). Pocket Wizard ability right in the cameras and flash? HDR automatically processed? While these may not be real enhancement in the actual photos taken with the camera I think they could greatly help in workflow aspects of it.

06-09-2008, 03:26 PM	#18
Jonson PL Veteran Member Join Date: Dec 2006 Location: Copenhagen Photos: Gallery Posts: 1,842	Thanks for your thoughts, Ben. I don’t think Pentax will announce FF camera, at Photokina in September 2008. They need a speed camera with fps, to match the specs of A700, E3, Eos 40D and D300. One day they will have a FF in the line-up, and it would be sweet to use e.g. the 31 lmt. at designed focal length.

06-09-2008, 05:47 PM	#19
Sleepy Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Miami Photos: Gallery Posts: 133	As long as there is a big improvement on the low light AF, that's the next generation I have been waiting for. I know the improvement on FF, more pixel, iso, live view, or high DR would probably bring Pentax more new DSLR users and more MONEY than improved AF would. However, if Pentax would like to retain some Pentax users like me and some of my friends, improved AF is a MUST on the next generation.

06-09-2008, 06:29 PM	#20
cputeq Inactive Account Join Date: Apr 2008 Posts: 464	Improved AF. Faster FPS burst. Greater Burst Buffer Concurrent shooting / writing to memory cards. Keep beginner model 10MP but add second edial. Keep and improve on the 14MP for the "promatuer" model. ------- I'm betting much of their R&D went to perfecting the 14MP sensor. Next iteration, hopefully, the AF will be overhauled.

06-09-2008, 09:11 PM	#21
Donald Veteran Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Toronto Posts: 329	"Next generation" or "...September 2008". What comes in September 2008 is of minimal interest as it probably will be iterative improvements; "next generation" is of great interest as it is open and unknown. Next generation I would like to see a more "open source" camera with ability to user program any unique shooting feature sets possible and call up or cancel at button push. For example: shoot series with successively different ISO's or different metering modes. The example is not important, the ability to custom program is important. Really, really good software applications give you this ability by allowing access to data all the time; conversely, poor software locks you out of data often for unexplainable reasons. All cameras, that I'm aware of, follow this poor model; different models may have more or better features, none give it all up for you to completely program your own. It is only through this more "open source" camera that I'll get my programmable, accurate, shot counter that I so desparately want, instead of the laughably always wrong best guess shot remaining thingy. Also, in the "next generation" department, I foresee tighter interoperability with photo software applications. Example, ability to upload from Adobe / Capture# / Lightroom / Silky / Gimp / PSP etc. special features you prepare within those applications to enhance succeeding post processing tasks. Alternately, as portable devices use Windows lite, CE, Palm, Apple OS, so too will next generation cameras again allowing significant user programmability.

06-10-2008, 01:37 AM	#22
Richard Day Inactive Account Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Gloucester UK Posts: 441	Originally posted by regken Richard, Normally I wouldn't dream of disagreeing with you but the Ned Burnell interview was very emphatic on stating the K200D is Pentax's entry level body. He said the intention is to keep the Pentax name out of the big boxes so that specialty shops would be willing to up sell customers to a K200D that would better serve them in preparing to jump to a more robust model. This is similar to what Sony is doing with their more expensive models and their S.U.R.E, program. That sounds like a good game plan, or one heck of a spin as to why they don't have an entry level priced unit. If they do come out with a low priced unit we'll know Ned was saying what he had to and Pentax is just trying to do the best they can with the limited amount of money Hoya is willing to let them spend on R & D. If we don't see a low cost unit it will be a good indication of Pentax's long term game plan, which as Ned said is to develop bodies that appeal to a niche market. My guess is that niche is not faster AF which is more main stream than say a higher resolution, low noise at low ISO settings, and more DR. Somewhat closer to what Ben wants than what a "Soccer Mom" is looking for. The DSLR market has reached a size in the last year that warrants more niche type products. Personally I hope Ned was being straight in the interview and this is where Pentax is heading. The idea of owning bodies from several manufacturers for different types of shooting doesn't bother me at all. It may take Pentax another year to come out with the next APS-C body and I expect it to emphasis resolution, low noise at low ISO numbers and better DR as opposed to better and faster AF. Samsung is driving the bus on the FF body so that will come along as soon as they can put it together. Ken Deciding to back specialist dealers doesn't mean you shouldn't have differentiated "niche" offerings at similar price points. The K200D is Pentax's entry camera "at the moment", and a great one at that, but that doesn't mean there won't be a lower model soon. As Canon have just launched their 1000D, the independent specialist stores that don't want to go with Canon (we do have a few here in the UK!) will need the lower priced entry point camera. I'm certain that one will be introduced in time for Photokina, if not before. I actually believe it's fairly close. What happens further down the line is less clear, but I'm pretty convinced there will be a higher spec APS-C body announced before PMA and maybe even at Photokina. Pentax may decide to make their future plans regarding further bodies and other formats clear by PMA, but I suspect they would only do so if they feel it's absolutely neccessary to keep the faithful, but I think caution will prevail. But I'll put money on an entry body by Photokina, and I'm a tightwad! I also think we will see some more mockup lenses and maybe even the long awaited 60-250 actually appear in reality, and, as a very long shot, a mockup of the model above the K20D, but I wouldn't bet on anything more than that.

06-10-2008, 01:45 AM	#23
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	Canon will not introduce an even lower spec'd camera. The old generation of EOS XXXD becomes their entry level offer.

06-10-2008, 01:48 AM	#24
Asahiflex Pentaxian Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Netherlands Photos: Gallery Posts: 2,795	Originally posted by ftpaddict Canon will not introduce an even lower spec'd camera. The old generation of EOS XXXD becomes their entry level offer. Maybe you have missed the news... The Canon 1000D is already officially announced!

06-10-2008, 03:34 AM	#25
ftpaddict Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Yurp Photos: Gallery Posts: 4,666	Originally posted by Asahiflex Maybe you have missed the news... The Canon 1000D is already officially announced! I saw it right after I made that post. Too lazy to delete it now. Ah well...

06-10-2008, 06:28 AM	#26
xand New Member Join Date: Sep 2006 Posts: 21	Originally posted by Sleepy As long as there is a big improvement on the low light AF, that's the next generation I have been waiting for. I know the improvement on FF, more pixel, iso, live view, or high DR would probably bring Pentax more new DSLR users and more MONEY than improved AF would. However, if Pentax would like to retain some Pentax users like me and some of my friends, improved AF is a MUST on the next generation. +++ Faster AF is mandatory for me to stick with the system - especially in a world where the 40D costs less than the K20D.

06-10-2008, 09:03 AM	#27
thePiRaTE!! Inactive Account Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Calgary, AB Photos: Gallery Posts: 942	Though I doubt they would ever do it, I rather wish one could simply buy swappable sensors and keep the body going forever (like the m8). I don't even use any autofocus and would gladly keep the same body forever if I could just keep upgrading the sensor. My little dream? That Pentax announce the larger sensor, along with the release of the FF compatible DA*60-250

06-10-2008, 09:49 AM	#29
Not Registered Guest	To me niche doesnt mean FF, fast AF... To me niche means 67D, or infrared/UV cameras (it would be neat a sensor where you could put the filters that you wish), or watersealed (not only weathersealed)cameras, street minicameras/pancakes (similar to Olympus)... The only thing that concerns me about that is that you cant afford to have QC issues being a niche player, you really have to be reliable to convince the people to pay extra for them.

06-10-2008, 10:29 AM	#30
Adam67 Forum Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: MI Posts: 62	When it comes to megapixels when is enough enough? I remember my first digital camera had 3mp (I skipped the big 2mp generation). My next one had 4. Then my brother bought an 8 (Way ahead of the curve) and I thought that was CRAZY! Huge files and slow to download and edit and print; not to mention you could not get very many on a 512mb card. Now I have 10.2 on my K200D and it's no big deal. My computers are much faster and so are the usb connections. Working with RAW files this size 8 years ago would have been a nightmare.....but now...no big deal.....and that's on my laptop. Computers are getting faster & faster. Hard dives (and portable solid state media) are getting bigger & bigger (capacity wise) When is enough enough? What does it take to reproduce poster sized images with no loss in resolution?