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06-26-2015, 03:04 PM   #106
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You and I are just different generations there. I think for this generation 2.8 is fast, 3.5 -5.6 is standard. To my generation 1.8 is standard. 1.4 or lower is fast. But then I never shot even 800 ISO in film . 400 ISO was as much grain as I could handle, so maybe 3.5 now is the same as 1.8 when I was learning. I will go to 1600 now if I have to, the same way I used to go to 400 if I had to.

06-26-2015, 03:31 PM   #107
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I'll believe your vision that there's enough market out there to support a pent D FA 20 ƒ1.2 when I see it and probably not before.
There you are going to extremes again. It's obvious you do not want to concede a point whatsoever. There is room for both compact and big and bright primes.
06-26-2015, 04:33 PM   #108
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f/1.2 lenses never sold well. They were talked about a lot, but obviously from their price an value and scarcity the fact is shooting f/1.2 is rare and comes with tradeoffs. ISO performance has eclipsed the need. My dealer says he sells almost no lenses faster than f/1.4 because the perceived value difference is so great. Over the lifetime of the lens you'd pat something like $1 per keeper!
06-26-2015, 04:50 PM   #109
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
f/1.2 lenses never sold well. They were talked about a lot, but obviously from their price an value and scarcity the fact is shooting f/1.2 is rare and comes with tradeoffs. ISO performance has eclipsed the need. My dealer says he sells almost no lenses faster than f/1.4 because the perceived value difference is so great. Over the lifetime of the lens you'd pat something like $1 per keeper!
De discussion was never about 1.2. normhead made it so so he could win it.

06-26-2015, 05:37 PM   #110
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
You and I are just different generations there. I think for this generation 2.8 is fast, 3.5 -5.6 is standard. To my generation 1.8 is standard. 1.4 or lower is fast. But then I never shot even 800 ISO in film . 400 ISO was as much grain as I could handle, so maybe 3.5 now is the same as 1.8 when I was learning. I will go to 1600 now if I have to, the same way I used to go to 400 if I had to.
Did you shoot with Pentax in the past or with Leica? Pentax doesn't have a long history of many lenses that are "1.4 or faster." To me, the question is whether or not a lens at its widest apertures. The FA 50 f1.4 is a fast lens that needs to be shot stopped down a stop and a half, meaning that it isn't particularly fast in reality, while the FA 77 is a slow lens of f1.8 that is usable wide open.

Oh well, I'm not even sure what we're arguing about any more. I'll keep shooting my slow lenses and let you shoot yours.
06-27-2015, 04:59 AM   #111
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
Settle down Norm. I have no idea why threads take rabbit trails.

I guess it is stupid that I think of f1.8 lenses as fast, but in Pentax land, they are about as fast as you can go, except for the FA 50 f1.4 and DA *55 f1.4. I guess in my mind anything faster than f2.8 for a primes is fast and anything faster than f4 for a zoom is fast. I suppose your definition is different.

But don't be so cantankerous. I think you're a smart guy and a good photographer.


I Love being cantankerous, sometimes you make a point, but people say stuff that let's you know, they just don't get it. Some people just give up, I get loud.
06-27-2015, 05:04 AM   #112
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
De discussion was never about 1.2. normhead made it so so he could win it.
Frankly, ALL lens discussions are bot f/stop bing as ridiculously wide as possible.:roll eyes:

It's an internet rule ALL optical discussions devolve to f/1.2.

Just doing my part.
06-27-2015, 05:41 AM   #113
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QuoteOriginally posted by Aristophanes Quote
Frankly, ALL lens discussions are bot f/stop bing as ridiculously wide as possible.:roll eyes:

It's an internet rule ALL optical discussions devolve to f/1.2.

Just doing my part.
1.2 is useless. You neeeed this lens:



06-27-2015, 05:44 AM   #114
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
There you are going to extremes again. It's obvious you do not want to concede a point whatsoever. There is room for both compact and big and bright primes.
Not in my camera bag, not in many other camera bags. They are too big, too expensive, and provide very little added utility, it's a specialty product for a specific niche, far removed from mainstream photography.

Most of us won't even buy a lens like the DA 14.
06-27-2015, 06:01 AM   #115
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I have resisted getting a super zoom to this point, because they need a fair amount of light and aren't the best at indoor situations. I'm afraid I wouldn't use a copy that much if I had one.
06-27-2015, 06:02 AM   #116
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Not in my camera bag, not in many other camera bags. They are too big, too expensive, and provide very little added utility, it's a specialty product for a specific niche, far removed from mainstream photography.

Most of us won't even buy a lens like the DA 14.
You don't need to muster an illusive majority to tell me why you don't need a certain kind of lens. It doesn't mean there is no need or use for it for anybody else. Niche? The 50 is the most produced lens in history. Hardly a niche, just because it is a bit bigger and has a wider aperture. Stopped down they often deliver even better performance than a mundane 50 1.7 at the same aperture. They deliver a bit more creative freedom, but also can be used for mainstream photography. The DA 14 is just blown out the water by the DA15. Sad story. Plenty photog's buy the comparable wide samyangs though.
06-27-2015, 06:09 AM   #117
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I resisted, thinking much the same thing, now I'm hoping the Sigma 18-250 gets back soon from the Sigma repair facility. There are place I want to take it. Super zooms are good for giving you something you can use, place you wouldn't take a camera bag, and want everything to not weigh very much. If you don't have one, you won't ever use one. If you have one, there are times they get you images when without them, you would have just left the DSLR home and bought the point and shoot. And in those situations, the improvement in image quality is night and day. We don't use it much, but when you want it, you want it.

---------- Post added 06-27-15 at 09:14 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
You don't need to muster an illusive majority to tell me why you don't need a certain kind of lens. It doesn't mean there is no need or use for it for anybody else. Niche? The 50 is the most produced lens in history. Hardly a niche, just because it is a bit bigger and has a wider aperture. Stopped down they often deliver even better performance than a mundane 50 1.7 at the same aperture. They deliver a bit more creative freedom, but also can be used for mainstream photography. The DA 14 is just blown out the water by the DA15. Sad story. Plenty photog's buy the comparable wide samyangs though.
I believe I said there was a use for such lenses, as special items and part of a niche market, you must be talking to somebody else. And further back I also pointed out 50s were kit lenses and it's really hard to think of them as fast . As long as there's been the stock 50 or 55 ƒ1.8s there's been the fast 50's, 1.4 and 1.2. Trying to include the 50 1.8 in your "fast lenses" collection... get yer hands off them, I claimed them first.

Last edited by normhead; 06-27-2015 at 06:15 AM.
06-27-2015, 06:48 AM   #118
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
I resisted, thinking much the same thing, now I'm hoping the Sigma 18-250 gets back soon from the Sigma repair facility. There are place I want to take it. Super zooms are good for giving you something you can use, place you wouldn't take a camera bag, and want everything to not weigh very much. If you don't have one, you won't ever use one. If you have one, there are times they get you images when without them, you would have just left the DSLR home and bought the point and shoot. And in those situations, the improvement in image quality is night and day. We don't use it much, but when you want it, you want it.

---------- Post added 06-27-15 at 09:14 AM ----------



I believe I said there was a use for such lenses, as special items and part of a niche market, you must be talking to somebody else. And further back I also pointed out 50s were kit lenses and it's really hard to think of them as fast . As long as there's been the stock 50 or 55 1.8s there's been the fast 50's, 1.4 and 1.2. Trying to include the 50 1.8 in your "fast lenses" collection... get yer hands off them, I claimed them first.
Now you are trying to stake out into my territory. I claim everything up to F/2.8 You start at f/3.5
06-27-2015, 07:03 AM   #119
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Now you are trying to stake out into my territory. I claim everything up to F/2.8 You start at f/3.5
Rock paper scissors?
06-27-2015, 07:08 AM - 1 Like   #120
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You people are nuts!
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