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View Poll Results: Do you want to see a K1000D from Pentax
Yes, a modern type like the D60 and EOS 1000D. 1010.53%
Yes, a retro type - something like the digital version of the MZ-5 3435.79%
No, such a low end model is meaningless to me. 1010.53%
No, Pentax should use all her resources to make a Pro model instead. 4143.16%
Voters: 95. You may not vote on this poll

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06-14-2008, 03:39 AM   #31
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QuoteOriginally posted by little laker Quote
I'm one of the people whom will never use live view again. I tried it with Point and shoots, and that's the #1 reason why I moved to DSLR's.
But a DSLR has LV feature won't hurt in any way. The LV only provides more flexibility and thus more photo opportunities afterall when we need to shoot at extreme high and low level.

QuoteQuote:
Why even bother with JPG
I understand that all RAW files already contain JPG's, and a simple software program can easily extract them.
If the software developers design the program right most people would never even know the difference, but the people whom like to spend their time editing will have all RAW features at their fingertips.
Jpegs are for convenience and small footprint. RAW is good but it's time consuming for the conversion plus its file size is much larger (plus there is a converted image, also). For most users who just converted the RAW for one time 99% of the time, a good enough jpeg serve the same purpose as long as not much retouching and PP is required for the jpeg, directly out of the camera.

06-15-2008, 12:53 AM   #32
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I agree it should be RAW only, like Sigma did with their first SD's...
06-15-2008, 03:51 AM   #33
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It will 'HAVE' to be a modern entry point body.

I haven't voted because the first option is contradictory (typical RH). The D60 is not a modern body as it doesn't have Live View, it's a minor upgrade on the D40x, whereas the Canon 450D, 1000D, Sony A300, A350 and Oly 420 and 520 all offer it.

If Pentax introduce a low level entry point body (which I'm convinced they will), it will have to be a modern entry point body with Live View (whatever we may think about it) to bring P&S users into the fold. Pentax cannot afford not to do this.

Unless Pentax utilise a similar approach as the fubar version of LV that Sony has used on their A300/350, this will probably mean a CMOS sensor will have to be employed, where it comes from is anyones guess and will mean that the K200D will have to be updated too (as covered in my last two paragraphs).

New users are the life blood for future sales and it must appeal to them, time has moved on and they want LV, a basic retro model could be a luxury Pentax can do when they have that entry point covered, as indeed they did with the MZ-M back in the film days.

I spent some time in a major main line photo store yesterday that was promoting DSLR's, and buyers were going for Canon, Oly and Sony models rather than the Nikon D60 mainly because of no LV and of course the cost. The K200D, or even the K20D, were never asked for, or even demonstrated, though both were on the shelves, albeit very well hidden among several lenses (no Pentax glass) whereas the other makes had their own showcases with lenses.

It may well be that Pentax don't wan't to be in the mix with the other brands in the high street, but if not, I feel they will struggle to hold on to the small market share they have at the moment unless they do something innovative with their marketing. Unfortunately it is very expensive to re-educate the public into a different way of thinking. Tough choices.

Sadly however, I suspect they will attempt to follow the market in the main with a entry point model but (maybe initially) without LV, just to give them the breathing space to fit a CMOS sensor into the replacements. It will probably have to be the 14.6MP K20D sensor as well, in order to have something better than Sony or Canon as both are still pushing the MP race, even 10MP these days is seen as last years specification.

Using this sensor across the board may not be such a stupid thing to do provided the bodies have enough differentiation with regard to controls, fps and buffer size and speed. It would help to make manufacturing costs lower due to increased production runs. It would also remove the challenge of sensor supply from Sony.

Last edited by Richard Day; 06-15-2008 at 04:05 AM. Reason: New opening paragraph
06-15-2008, 05:12 AM   #34
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Richard, suc ha move would indeed call for a K200D upgrade but not that urgenyt as we may think. What I mean is that Canon did have no problem selling middle end cameras (was it the 20D?) againt low end bodies (350/400D I think) when low end bodies had more Mpix that middle end ones.

Mpix is more important in low end. It's stupid but it is so IMO.

PS: people moaning about the 25/2.8 pancake from Oly forget that there's a 21/3.2 Limited wwhich is at least as good as the Oly. And I don't think /2.8 against /3.2 is a big deal at all

06-15-2008, 05:26 AM   #35
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Richard, suc ha move would indeed call for a K200D upgrade but not that urgenyt as we may think. What I mean is that Canon did have no problem selling middle end cameras (was it the 20D?) againt low end bodies (350/400D I think) when low end bodies had more Mpix that middle end ones.

Mpix is more important in low end. It's stupid but it is so IMO.

PS: people moaning about the 25/2.8 pancake from Oly forget that there's a 21/3.2 Limited wwhich is at least as good as the Oly. And I don't think /2.8 against /3.2 is a big deal at all
Thibs,

I maybe wrong but the F2.8 in Oly land is more like a F3.73 equivalent in Pentax country. So we are actually ahead in this but I am not sure about FL equivalents (50 mm for Oly and a mere 31.5 for Pentax). Even better IMO is to comapre the 25/2.8 with the 40/2.8 Ltd.

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06-15-2008, 04:43 PM   #36
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I guess this all depends on whether Hoya-Pentax sees the entry level market as a place to increase visibility of the brand. IMHO, it would be a mistake to let the K200D be their basic entry level model. I think that the entry level customers need something that is dead simple. Not retro, not especially pocketable, but dead simple for a tyro to operate and reset to basic operation if you depart from the basic settings. This might mean replacing the ae mode dial altogether, and replacing it with a mode button that can be held down while the e-dial is rotated to move from "Auto-pict". Add a master reset button to return all settings to factory defaults. Make the factory defaults "Auto-pict" ae, Multipoint AF, Evaluative metering, Auto WB, Auto Iso, Auto Flash activation with red-eye reduction and af assist, cancel aec and flash ec.
If Pentaxes do underexpose in general(I don't necessarily believe this but it I will recognize the complaint), make the tyro model not. If awb is deliberately off(again, I've used canon and sony, and they weren't particularly good at awb either, but I'll recognize the complaint), make the tyro model awb better.
Some other things, if you want to sell entry-level imo:
You'll need live view(even some variation of how sony does it), 10MP, SR and jpeg capture(10MP best quality should be the default when the camera is reset). WB settings should be basic with different presets and a custom wb, no K settings, no fine tuning.
Leave off the top deck lcd, auto-bracketing, optical DOF preview(at least, maybe leave off electronic preview as well) and unless you're going to introduce a weather-sealed DA 18-55 f/3.5-5.6 AL III that can be included in the kit, leave off weather-seals. Leave off fittings for a battery grip.
Sell in kit form only with choice of 18-55 or 18-250 zoom lens.

And of course all this needs to be at least $100 less expensive than the K200D.

To help with this:
Create a fancified K200D kit, include either an 18-55 kit lens, or an 18-250, throw in the latest edition of Corel Paintshop Pro Photo and add the Magic Lantern guide for the K200D. Come up with a good name for the kit that doesn't have a "*" in it. (Incidentally, the Pentax K100D/DS is the box cover camera for the latest edition of Paintshop Pro Photo.)

Some other possibilities, promote gear with a two-way deal with Epson printers.

If you could get these products in stores like Wal-Mart, Meijer, Best Buy and Target, they could be sold and compete with the other brands. A "pro" model is only going to matter if the company stays in business. And if pentax doesn't, I pray only that Samsung takes over the mount and does as good a job as Sony has of promoting their products(actually Sony makes ok gear, much like Canon and Nikon, and I think all three are very overpriced for what you get). Maybe Samsung has the money to hire an Hollywood star who is popular(despite my befuddlement at the phenomenon, since he seems to be under-gifted with anything in the way of talent) and can hawk their gear on TV.

And if Samsung would like to give me a GX-20 or GX-10 for my ideas, or Pentax would like to give me a K20D or K200D or even better a DA* 50-135 f2.8 for my ideas, who would I be to refuse?

Last edited by brothereye; 06-15-2008 at 04:50 PM.
06-16-2008, 03:19 AM   #37
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
PS: people moaning about the 25/2.8 pancake from Oly forget that there's a 21/3.2 Limited wwhich is at least as good as the Oly. And I don't think /2.8 against /3.2 is a big deal at all
I don't know where this comes from, but comparing a 50mm equi (the Oly pancake) to a 31mm equiv (DA 21) is copmparing apples to pears... It is not so much a gap in the pancake lens line up, there is a gap in the camera line up.

In a recent interview Hoya/Pentax said they want to be a niche player. They may very well have that meaning, but they are not doing anything to be a niche player (other than bad marketing), because the K200 and the K20 are not niche camera's... So, and this is not the first time I write this, Pentax need urgently to put a limited body on the market to match the limited lenses.
06-16-2008, 06:01 AM   #38
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QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
I don't know where this comes from, but comparing a 50mm equi (the Oly pancake) to a 31mm equiv (DA 21) is copmparing apples to pears... It is not so much a gap in the pancake lens line up, there is a gap in the camera line up.
Well comparison has to be made with either DA21 or DA40. If it is 50mm equivallent you wanne compare the FA35 IMO is small enough to be allowed to compare.

QuoteOriginally posted by Pentaxke Quote
In a recent interview Hoya/Pentax said they want to be a niche player.
Yes they are (as replied in another thread), maybe not the niche you want but niche nonetheless.

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