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06-09-2015, 02:58 PM - 1 Like   #721
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
it was not misleading (not that you said it was), it was not over-sold. It's a REALLY BIG DEAL. It's probably the most exciting news I've read on the main page including the FF.
I don't understand how anyone could disagree with the idea that this announcement was oversold.

The title of this thread states "Everything Changes" and the announcement said
"a technology that has the potential to change how photographers work. A technology that enables photographers to create images like never before, only limited by their imagination. ... It's a game changer."
Certainly, not "everything" changed for a lot of photographers. And the technology certainly does not change how "photographers work". Photographers were free to choose Canon or Nikon gear with which you could do high-power HSS shooting a long time ago. Even Pentax shooters could use Cactus gear to do the same thing before if they were dedicated (meaning they would have gotten a lot of smaller RF60 to get the same amount of power, not spending more money in the process, though).

So while the announcement is very relevant for a few individuals, it did not change "everything" for anyone; it just made HSS shooting more convenient for a very, very small subset of Pentaxians for which the price structure of the PrioLite equipment is not prohibitive.

06-09-2015, 03:08 PM   #722
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Of course, you may theoretically obtain tilted edges for very fast action. However, in practice this is no concern. Extremely fast moving outdoor subjects are either panned (racing cars, jets etc.) or organic (birds, skiiers, tennis players, boxers etc.).
I understand that for many applications the motion distortion is acceptable.

I still maintain that the technology is not ideally suited to stop fast motion.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Eventually, there is no way to stop action other than using the HotSync approach if you need to overpower the sun and need shallow depth of field and need to stop action.
That's not correct.

One can use a neutral density filter and a sufficient amount of fast firing flashes (like the Einstein strobes). That may be a lot more unwieldy than using HSS as more stopping power is obtained by reducing flash power which means an increase in number of strobes used, but it is certainly possible and will lead to better results.
06-09-2015, 03:09 PM   #723
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
I don't understand how anyone could disagree with the idea that this announcement was oversold.

The title of this thread states "Everything Changes" and the announcement said
"a technology that has the potential to change how photographers work. A technology that enables photographers to create images like never before, only limited by their imagination. ... It's a game changer."
Certainly, not "everything" changed for a lot of photographers. And the technology certainly does not change how "photographers work". Photographers were free to choose Canon or Nikon gear with which you could do high-power HSS shooting a long time ago. Even Pentax shooters could use Cactus gear to do the same thing before if they were dedicated (meaning they would have gotten a lot of smaller RF60 to get the same amount of power, not spending more money in the process, though).

So while the announcement is very relevant for a few individuals, it did not change "everything" for anyone; it just made HSS shooting more convenient for a very, very small subset of Pentaxians for which the price structure of the PrioLite equipment is not prohibitive.
The title of this thread states "Everything Changes" and the announcement said
"a technology that has the potential to change how Pentaxians work. A technology that enables Pentaxians to create images like never before, only limited by their imagination. ... It's a game changer."

fixed


but yes, I see your point
06-09-2015, 03:11 PM   #724
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QuoteOriginally posted by mattb123 Quote
I wonder if this tech would or could find it's way into smaller speedlight types of flashes. I realize it would be less power but the increased sync could really come in handy.
Its not new tech and Profoto has a system coming that offers this. Over the next few years it will trickle down to lower cost systems. Of course we might see continuous LED light kits with the same power output before we see the technology trickle down.

06-09-2015, 03:43 PM   #725
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06-09-2015, 04:24 PM   #726
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06-09-2015, 04:29 PM   #727
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QuoteOriginally posted by Class A Quote
That's not correct.

One can use a neutral density filter and a sufficient amount of fast firing flashes (like the Einstein strobes). That may be a lot more unwieldy than using HSS as more stopping power is obtained by reducing flash power which means an increase in number of strobes used, but it is certainly possible and will lead to better results.
I didn't mention ND filters because they obviously cannot solve the problem in real life.

When freezing action outdoor against the sun, only the shadow parts are meant to be illuminated by flash. Therefore, the sunny parts would become blurred when using a flash at XSync shutter speeds. That's why I always included "outdoor" in my postings above.

If an ND filter would work, these HotSync flashes wouldn't have been created at all.

Regarding flash efficiency, the ND filter approach does NOT require more flash power than HotSync. True, the ND filter eats stops, say 5 stops for an ND5 filter. But the same holds true for HotSync where only a 1/32th-wide strip illuminates the frame (at 1/8000s). Note that only a single full strobe charge can be fired during an exposure, be it HotSync or traditional. That charge is 1000Ws with PrioLite, 500Ws with PrioLite or Profoto, or considerably less with hot shoe HSS flashes.

This means an MBX500 (non HS) with ND filter yields the same photos as the more expensive MBX500 HS version for more static subjects as model posing for fashion.

The difference comes from the requirement to freeze action outdoor. People pay for this feature for a reason. E.g., because ND filters can't do the trick ... And reflectors often don't do too, esp. when they make the models blink.

To tell the truth you seem to miss, nothing else does the trick.

Last edited by falconeye; 06-09-2015 at 04:37 PM.
06-09-2015, 04:57 PM   #728
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QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
I didn't mention ND filters because they obviously cannot solve the problem in real life.
Well, they have been solving problems for many shooters for a long time.

There is one particular scenario -- when you need to record and freeze subject areas illuminated by ambient light and that ambient illumination is considered important -- where ND filters cannot help, but they are a solution when the moving parts are meant to be illuminated by flash only.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
When freezing action outdoor against the sun, only the shadow parts are meant to be illuminated by flash. Therefore, the sunny parts would become blurred when using a flash at XSync shutter speeds. That's why I always included "outdoor" in my postings above.
The "sunny parts" won't be blurred when you sufficiently stop down (using aperture and ND filter) so that they do not record anymore when illuminated by ambient light only. The flash can still provide enough power to make them visible (and truly freeze them).

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
If an ND filter would work, these HotSync flashes wouldn't have been created at all.
I don't think that follows as the convenience of using HSS is attractive on its own (without the need to open up new types of photography). Focusing and framing with ND filters is no fun and you need a lot of regular IGBT strobes at low power to overpower the sun.

I also appreciate that using ND filters so strong as to eliminate ambient exposure on moving parts will also typically result in severe underexposure of the background which most of the time will be undesirable.

So I agree, HSS flash photography has its justification for certain types of photography.

QuoteOriginally posted by falconeye Quote
Regarding flash efficiency, the ND filter approach does NOT require more flash power than HotSync.
Correct, it does not.

But to get short flash durations one has to decrease the flash power which means more strobes are required to make up for the loss in power. That's all I intended to say.


Last edited by Class A; 06-09-2015 at 05:13 PM.
06-09-2015, 05:06 PM   #729
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Usability Concerns

According to the PrioLite FAQ, using the "All" setting, only strobes within the same team (= group) get adjusted at the same time.

This means that when you change an exposure parameter, such as ISO, in order to change the background illumination but want to retain the same flash exposure, you need to go through all teams (= groups) and adjust them accordingly. Here, I'm assuming that all strobes within the same team (= group) have to have the same power. If they are allowed to have different power levels then my concern does not apply, but this is unlikely as there would be only one power display showing one level for up to nine different levels and "teams" should be called "channels" instead in this case.

I much prefer the Cactus approach where all groups can be adjusted (relatively, of course, i.e., they do not all have to have the same power) at the same time with one turn of the dial. When using 0.1 EV resolution, a press of the dial can change the resolution to 1 EV for a quick adjustment, and pressing the dial again, changes it back to 0.1 EV resolution.

I don't understand why the PrioLite remote makes this common use case -- adjusting the power level of all lights involved -- a multi-step procedure.

BTW, PrioLite also needs to work on their websites. The "PRODUCTS" link at http://priolite.us/pentax_hss leads to an unhelpful "greentoe" page and http://www.priolite.com/en/service/faq.html results in a "page not found". The actual lights appear to be great, but I expect better from a company playing at this level.

Last edited by Class A; 06-09-2015 at 05:29 PM.
06-09-2015, 05:19 PM - 1 Like   #730
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QuoteOriginally posted by Wired Quote
I disagree. it was not misleading (not that you said it was), it was not over-sold. It's a REALLY BIG DEAL. It's probably the most exciting news I've read on the main page including the FF. But maybe I'm nearly alone in that sentiment.
I agree that it is a big deal! It brings more functionality to multiple Pentax cameras, including the great 645z. To some people, it will be worth the price.

Last edited by stillshot2; 06-09-2015 at 05:24 PM.
06-09-2015, 05:44 PM   #731
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https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/12078174/priolite/priolite-hot-sync-bildsymphonie.jpg
06-09-2015, 06:15 PM - 1 Like   #732
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Some people have problems with understanding, that Ricoh USA is NOT a part of the Pentax system in the same way as Ricoh Japan and Ricoh Europe is. Ricoh USA is only as distributor of Pentax. So this announcement have nothing to do with Pentax. So stop the negativity around Pentax in this case. This is a deal/thing that Ricoh USA have done 100% on their own. And please keep the FF out of this disqussion, cause the FF is progressing well and will come..and THAT will be a game changer.
But . . . . . But . . . . . . America is the center of the Universe!!!!
06-09-2015, 06:18 PM   #733
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QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
Yeah a German company's US sales rep gets a topic endorsed on international Pentax forum which is independent of Ricoh Imaging. It turns out to be a hss flash system and Dang! Ricoh isn't making a FF any more according to some.
Some just have to spread FUD.

Drive-by FUUDing
06-09-2015, 06:36 PM   #734
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QuoteOriginally posted by kenspo Quote
Some people have problems with understanding, that Ricoh USA is NOT a part of the Pentax system in the same way as Ricoh Japan and Ricoh Europe is. Ricoh USA is only as distributor of Pentax. So this announcement have nothing to do with Pentax. So stop the negativity around Pentax in this case. This is a deal/thing that Ricoh USA have done 100% on their own.
Both Ricoh Imaging USA and Ricoh USA are subsidiaries of Ricoh Japan, are you thinking of the old Honeywell Pentax distribution setup?

I agree that the announcement seems to have very little or nothing to do with Ricoh, it's just a third party development, albeit good news for the Pentax brand.
06-09-2015, 08:00 PM   #735
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Flash shutter speed only freeze motion in the ambient exposure, flash duration freezes motion in the flash exposure. HSS has a longer flash duration because its multiple smaller blasts of flash. Its not really game changing, since you still have the limitations of HSS, just you have a ton of power to really blast light even in HSS. Still this bodes well, this means there are people with 645z who want faster sync speeds, and the market creates the demand, and the demand creates the product. The more support the high end gets with the 645z, the happier the pros are with the product, and the happy the pros are, the more momentum is created for the 645z.
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