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08-15-2015, 06:11 AM   #376
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
As someone who does nature photography, insects and birds, as well as major cities tours (Rome, Venice, Berlin Prague, London), all I want is a 60mp full-frame camera and a 10mm to 1000mm fixed f2.8 zoom with 1:1 macro capacity - - - that is pocketable. Is that too much to ask?
Precisely! Not the least bit silly. This is the touch stone we use to decide how close the actual camera is to what we want. Thanks!

08-15-2015, 06:14 AM   #377
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
Precisely! Not the least bit silly. This is the touch stone we use to decide how close the actual camera is to what we want. Thanks!
You guys don't aim high, do you? That lens should ALSO be sharp and aberration-free throughout the zoom range! Or, I won't buy it....
08-15-2015, 06:15 AM   #378
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QuoteOriginally posted by sholtzma Quote
You guys don't aim high, do you? That lens should ALSO be sharp and aberration-free throughout the zoom range! Or, I won't buy it....
Resolution above 3500 across the frame at all focal lengths and apertures is a given.
08-15-2015, 06:55 AM   #379
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QuoteQuote:
I' expecting a $2,500 +/- body. The A7rII is able to command a premium because of its 4K video capabilities and it ability to adapt so many lenses. Hopefully Ricoh has a version of the 42mp sensor or at least a newer version of the 36MP.
Pentax is able to command a premium because it works natively with 6 million Pentax lenses. Since 2004 I have been totally APS-c and I own 9 Pentax FF lenses. I can buy a Pentax FF body, slap my FA 5- 1.7 pn it and walk out the door without spending another cent, covering a range from 35mm to 400mm. If the A7RII is positioned to use a lot of lenses, Pentax is better positioned. ON the Pentax system, the lenses will work as they were designed to work.

I know people like talking up other systems, but, honestly, what the new guys have natively is simply paltry. Small potatoes. Little fish in the big pond. Minuscule.. need I elaborate further?

08-15-2015, 06:56 AM   #380
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QuoteOriginally posted by WPRESTO Quote
Resolution above 3500 across the frame at all focal lengths and apertures is a given.
Not enough. Aberration free. And an instant Macbeth color checker built into the lens that rearranges the elements for constantly accurate color.

And if it's a penny over $500, I'm not springing for it.
08-15-2015, 07:59 AM   #381
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QuoteOriginally posted by normhead Quote
Pentax is able to command a premium because it works natively with 6 million Pentax lenses. Since 2004 I have been totally APS-c and I own 9 Pentax FF lenses. I can buy a Pentax FF body, slap my FA 5- 1.7 pn it and walk out the door without spending another cent, covering a range from 35mm to 400mm. If the A7RII is positioned to use a lot of lenses, Pentax is better positioned. ON the Pentax system, the lenses will work as they were designed to work.

I know people like talking up other systems, but, honestly, what the new guys have natively is simply paltry. Small potatoes. Little fish in the big pond. Minuscule.. need I elaborate further?
Actually the A7 works better with most of the 6 million Pentax lenses than the current version of K-mount. The older Super Taks, M, K mount lenses are much easier to use on an A7 body than on an K-3. You seem to be forgetting that Pentax crippled the K-mount so those older lenses are more difficult to use. So we can eliminate a few million of those "lenses will work as they were designed to work." BS. We can also eliminate all of those DA kit zoom lenses that were sold since they will be all but worthless on a FF body. Those DA kit lenses make up a larger percentage of DA lenses sold.

If the "Pentax is able to command a premium because it works natively with 6 million Pentax lenses." statement were remotely true then it would also apply to APS-C bodies, since all of those lenses work even better on APS-C bodies. Is Pentax able to command a premium for its current bodies? No. of course not. In case you haven't been paying attention the price of K-mount glass is very low. There are deep discounts to be had from the major retail houses, and prices on the used market have fallen significantly.

Sony also thought that all of the Minolta A-mount glass was going to give it an advantage. Sony has already done (and failed) what Ricoh is now trying to do. That A-mount legacy glass didn't equate to sales or demand for A-mount bodies.

There are two components to price.
1. Supply: Not all of those 6 million K-mount lenses are equally desirable. There is only a small number. The supply of legacy K-mount glass that will really appeal to FF buyers is not that large.
2. Demand: It does matter how many you have if there is no demand. Right now Ricoh's biggest problem is that there is very little demand. The majority of the market wants fast, quiet AF with modern HD coatings and ED/Super-Ed glass. Ricoh doesn't have a supply of those lenses.
08-15-2015, 08:30 AM   #382
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I don't think Ricoh's reasonning or logic matches or answers your statements Winder.
I am convinced they just wanna show :
1- what their recent photog merger with ex-Hoya Pentax business is worth, and
2- that they can at least do better than what Ricoh did in this market, when he was a sole player...

Unless we get confirmed corporate infos (and i don't think the whishfull intentions and declarations from 2011, are more than politically correct financial market targetted intentions), that would really indicate something else.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-15-2015 at 08:40 AM.
08-15-2015, 08:53 AM   #383
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Actually the A7 works better with most of the 6 million Pentax lenses than the current version of K-mount. The older Super Taks, M, K mount lenses are much easier to use on an A7 body than on an K-3. You seem to be forgetting that Pentax crippled the K-mount so those older lenses are more difficult to use. So we can eliminate a few million of those "lenses will work as they were designed to work." BS. We can also eliminate all of those DA kit zoom lenses that were sold since they will be all but worthless on a FF body. Those DA kit lenses make up a larger percentage of DA lenses sold.

If the "Pentax is able to command a premium because it works natively with 6 million Pentax lenses." statement were remotely true then it would also apply to APS-C bodies, since all of those lenses work even better on APS-C bodies. Is Pentax able to command a premium for its current bodies? No. of course not. In case you haven't been paying attention the price of K-mount glass is very low. There are deep discounts to be had from the major retail houses, and prices on the used market have fallen significantly.

Sony also thought that all of the Minolta A-mount glass was going to give it an advantage. Sony has already done (and failed) what Ricoh is now trying to do. That A-mount legacy glass didn't equate to sales or demand for A-mount bodies.

There are two components to price.
1. Supply: Not all of those 6 million K-mount lenses are equally desirable. There is only a small number. The supply of legacy K-mount glass that will really appeal to FF buyers is not that large.
2. Demand: It does matter how many you have if there is no demand. Right now Ricoh's biggest problem is that there is very little demand. The majority of the market wants fast, quiet AF with modern HD coatings and ED/Super-Ed glass. Ricoh doesn't have a supply of those lenses.
tl;dr

Pentax is doooomed

08-15-2015, 08:57 AM   #384
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need focus bracketing...
NEED.
08-15-2015, 09:03 AM   #385
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QuoteOriginally posted by Zygonyx Quote
I don't think Ricoh's reasonning or logic matches or answers your statements Winder.
I am convinced they just wanna show :
1- what their recent photog merger with ex-Hoya Pentax business is worth, and
2- that they can at least do better than what Ricoh did in this market, when he was a sole player...
.
What convinces you of this?

I'm claiming to know what Ricoh's intentions are or what they want so show. I'm simply pointing out what the market is doing. If demand for K-mount was high, then the price of the "Best K-mount lens ever" the 77mm would not be discounted $200 at B&H right now.

If you will read Sony's "reasoning and logic" when they bought Minolta and A-mount you will see that Sony wasn't accurate. What Sony said and what they intended didn't match the market. Ricoh has hired one of the Sony executives from the Minolta deal, so hopefully they do not repeat Sony's failures.
08-15-2015, 09:22 AM   #386
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
If demand for K-mount was high, then the price of the "Best K-mount lens ever" the 77mm would not be discounted $200 at B&H right now.
Well that would be true unless there's a reason to move existing inventory of SMC screwdrive FA77 Limiteds over the coming months.

As far as Ricoh is concerned every dollar received by moving an FA77 Limited is 100% Profit. There is no current 'cost' associated with selling acquired inventory. FA Limiteds have briefly been on sale every summer, late October and Black Friday for the last several years, especially the 77. I bought mine Halloween 2014 for $100 less than B&H is listing it today. I got lucky on a 1-Day Sale.

Remember, under a MAP pricing scheme, Dealer advertised sales must be pre-authorized by the manufacturer.

There could be plenty of reasons for sale pricing besides 'low' demand.
08-15-2015, 09:28 AM   #387
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
What convinces you of this?

I'm claiming to know what Ricoh's intentions are or what they want so show. I'm simply pointing out what the market is doing. If demand for K-mount was high, then the price of the "Best K-mount lens ever" the 77mm would not be discounted $200 at B&H right now.

If you will read Sony's "reasoning and logic" when they bought Minolta and A-mount you will see that Sony wasn't accurate. What Sony said and what they intended didn't match the market. Ricoh has hired one of the Sony executives from the Minolta deal, so hopefully they do not repeat Sony's failures.
I think Monochrome's guess is more likely to be the case. I would be shocked if there aren't revamped versions of the FA limiteds that come out soon after the release of a full frame camera -- probably with some sort of sealing, HD coatings and quick shift. The fact that FA limiteds are on sale price right now is more likely a signal of the fact that they are going to be replaced, then anything else.
08-15-2015, 09:38 AM   #388
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Monochrome's guess is more likely to be the case. I would be shocked if there aren't revamped versions of the FA limiteds that come out soon after the release of a full frame camera -- probably with some sort of sealing, HD coatings and quick shift. The fact that FA limiteds are on sale price right now is more likely a signal of the fact that they are going to be replaced, then anything else.
Given asahi man's repeated hints that 2016 is the year of the prime (5, maybe 6), so will I.

And kenspo keeps hinting at a new direction for Pentax. I think we're thinking inside the box.

But I'm just guessing. I don't talk to people outside the Forum any more.
08-15-2015, 09:51 AM   #389
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I think Monochrome's guess is more likely to be the case. I would be shocked if there aren't revamped versions of the FA limiteds that come out soon after the release of a full frame camera -- probably with some sort of sealing, HD coatings and quick shift. The fact that FA limiteds are on sale price right now is more likely a signal of the fact that they are going to be replaced, then anything else.
I have been saying for months that Ricoh is trying to clear inventory to make room for updated versions and he has been arguing with me over that point.

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Well that would be true unless there's a reason to move existing inventory of SMC screwdrive FA77 Limiteds over the coming months.
It is still true. Lowering price is an attempt to increase the demand. It still represents a demand issue. If the demand is high you don't have to lower prices. The best K-mount lens ever should never have to go on sale. We already had this discussion a couple of months back when Ricoh kept the lenses on sale I I said they were clearing inventory for replacements. We had a discussion about when the last production run of FA Limited lenses was.
08-15-2015, 10:03 AM   #390
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@Winder : what convinces me of this, is the way new steps are simply but firmly incremented since Ricoh's take over : they are building consumer confidence based on the two brands' traditions and strengths. They are not communicating here and there, paying journalists or media adverts like they could do if their objectives were short-term.
They do have a different timeframe than the other Sony, Nikon, Canon and so on.
Different than the "impatient switchers" and "Pentax-is-doomers" may have.
Different for a single reason : there is no immediate nor vital risk for Ricoh's corporation, imaging is just too small ; but they want to keep it sane. And maybe, in the long term, bigger than others.

Last edited by Zygonyx; 08-15-2015 at 10:20 AM.
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