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08-16-2015, 10:11 AM   #421
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QuoteOriginally posted by Scintilla Quote
Common nickname for the K 28/2, floating element and Zeiss design (basically the same lens as the Zeiss Distagon 28/2 for Contax/Yashica and ZF/ZE/ZK).
Thank you, new one to me.

08-16-2015, 10:11 AM   #422
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Yes my fellow pentaxians. This is how things sit for now, and for those of us who have invested so much on DA * lenses we mwill have to sell up and start from scratch, and that's an expensive start I must say. I for one, will wait into the new year to see how the FF performs and see what lenses come out with it before I invest in at least a 3000 start up package. For me unfortunately I only have the FA 35 f2 and an old 50 A 1.7 as FF lenses and it's not the best start for someone who take solely landscape. Maybe selling my k5 and 16-50 sdm will give me some spare cash to buy up on a decent wide angle FF.
08-16-2015, 10:15 AM   #423
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
One thing I forgot in my responses above was pointed out on another thread. For US retailers - the US Dollar is strong versus the Yen, so running sales in USD terms doesn't really cost Ricoh anything at the dock door and helps Pentax N.A. and the retailers at the channel level - so why not move some extra merchandise?
Lenses like the FA 77mm were purchased by B&H/Adorama a long time ago. When was the last production run again? They are moving existing inventory which would have been paid for before Japan got stupid with their money. Lenses not in inventory or lenses that are turning quickly are effected by currency fluctuations.

QuoteOriginally posted by Mikesul Quote
I have been looking at FA and DA limiteds and DA*s. All of which seem to stay up in the marketplace at very low prices. With FF promises and rumors everywhere I would have thought that these lenses would have retained their value or even increased in the case of the FAs. Most of the DA*s work fine on FF as well as some DAs.
I have been looking at a couple of lenses like the A 50mm F/1.2 and they have fallen quite a bit in price.

QuoteOriginally posted by derekkite Quote
They have gone up in price in Canada. Must be lots of demand.
Really? There are a couple of people from Canada selling in the market place and they are complaining that the prices are falling. At least on the used lenses they are selling.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
I thought going from 77 to 86,000 was a bit over much. But maybe the new metering chip is capable of more than has been shown yet. Just speculation of course but it is sitting there reading 86,000 pixels independent of the main sensor.
They are using the RGB color meter for facial recognition and AF tracking so they need the extra resolution. If they want to continue to develop that and have features like eye AF (Olympus and Sony) they will need to continue to increase resolution. I think you will end up seeing a 1-2MP sensor in place of the color meter. Maybe they will replace the PDAF sensor array and color meter with a single 1-2MP sensor with PDAF points on it.

QuoteOriginally posted by D1N0 Quote
People are hoarding cash and selling lenses to be able to buy the FF with one or two new lenses. Once it arrives things will open up again I think.
Which is why demand for the existing lenses has fallen. Demand will pick back up if Ricoh hits a home run with the FF body and existing users test the lenses with good results.

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
yes, in an EVF no problem. But in an OVF or hybrid system where does it go?
The 3D printed FF body shows a rather large prism. Kenspro keeps saying "the future is bright" which might be a hint that we are going to see a really big bright OVF. Of course that could be just wishful thinking on my part. I think the OVF is going to be very big and very bright. I think there will be room.
08-16-2015, 10:31 AM   #424
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Lenses like the FA 77mm were purchased by B&H/Adorama a long time ago. When was the last production run again? They are moving existing inventory which would have been paid for before Japan got stupid with their money. Lenses not in inventory or lenses that are turning quickly are effected by currency fluctuations.
You know that for a fact - how - again? You are absolutely certain Denver didn't order a supply of lenses for this month's lens deals?

That's how MAP pricing works.

Your demand theory is certainly possible but neither you nor I knows what's really happening in the market. Repeating ad infinitum Demand is Down doesn't make you any more right than you were the first time you suggested your idea.

08-16-2015, 10:34 AM   #425
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
Lenses like the FA 77mm were purchased by B&H/Adorama a long time ago. When was the last production run again? They are moving existing inventory which would have been paid for before Japan got stupid with their money. Lenses not in inventory or lenses that are turning quickly are effected by currency fluctuations.
Ricoh's inventory or B&H inventory?
Not the same thing at all...
08-16-2015, 10:48 AM   #426
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Ricoh's inventory or B&H inventory? Not the same thing at all...
Yes, I cannot believe B&H is still sitting on pre-Ricoh inventory. They are smarter than that. B&H is placing orders to keep their stock level where they feel it should be. No idea if that is 2 77mm's or 20 but it is a number they feel comfortable with. Ricoh on the other hand acquired an inventory without any decision making process, they own it all. Pricing decisions, (rebates, reductions or whatever) will be based on when Ricoh wants to see the last of their inventory gone. Inventory is at several levels: Ricoh itself, regional distributors in various parts of the world and local dealers like B&H. Ricoh will be concerned first with clearing out what they own, then moving it around between different distributors to make sure it is evenly distributed where demand requires it. And only when distributors are balanced and seeing the end of the line will they worry about about close out deals at retailers. Maybe this coming Black Friday will be very special
08-16-2015, 11:19 AM   #427
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
They are using the RGB color meter for facial recognition and AF tracking so they need the extra resolution. If they want to continue to develop that and have features like eye AF (Olympus and Sony) they will need to continue to increase resolution. I think you will end up seeing a 1-2MP sensor in place of the color meter. Maybe they will replace the PDAF sensor array and color meter with a single 1-2MP sensor with PDAF points on it.
86k pixels is more than enough to detect a person's eyes.
08-16-2015, 11:34 AM   #428
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I think we're just being poked for a weekend grin.

08-16-2015, 11:54 AM   #429
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QuoteOriginally posted by thibs Quote
Ricoh's inventory or B&H inventory?
Not the same thing at all...
Distributor or retailers inventory.

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 02:05 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
You know that for a fact - how - again? You are absolutely certain Denver didn't order a supply of lenses for this month's lens deals?
You are right. Ricoh might operate differently than the other manufacturers. I know the small B&M shops have to buy on the front end and hold inventory. The local pro-shop here has tried to carry Sony, but they can't meet Sony's volume requirements. When I ask about Pentax they tell me I'm the only person who ever asks. They have not seen a Pentax rep in years and they have no demand for the brand. IF they had people asking for Pentax (Demand) they would be carrying the brand.

According to and Asian distributor the FA Limited lenses are out of production and not available for them to order. Even Digital Rev which ships globally lists this as discontinued. North America and Europe have the last remaining inventories. If he is right, then "no" Denver doesn't order monthly inventory.

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 02:09 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Kunzite Quote
86k pixels is more than enough to detect a person's eyes.
That obviously depends on how close you are to the subject and 86K is not enough for facial recognition as employed by Sony in the A7 line.

You have to be pretty tight on the subject for 86K to work for eye recognition and accurate focus.

08-16-2015, 12:19 PM   #430
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Most of the offers are continental NA only, their is lot of crop lenses when people are waiting for the FF. The 150-450 was a succes I suppose (I find some shots easily when the DA560 is very rare). Without knowing anything about the ff price point nor its features and as lot will add a new ff lense with it. It's feels normal to wait and save. It may be the case until we know which primes will be out in 2016. If they announce a D-FA*300/2.8 and a new version of the FA*200/4macro, I'll have to save a long time.
08-16-2015, 12:22 PM   #431
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The system only has to detect and track the eye and select a suitable AF point.
Surely, increasing the resolution will make it possible to detect subjects farther away etc. - but for now, I'd say they could work on algorithms, responsiveness, rather than create new problems (e.g. processing power).
08-16-2015, 12:25 PM   #432
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QuoteOriginally posted by Mattox Quote
Yes my fellow pentaxians. This is how things sit for now, and for those of us who have invested so much on DA * lenses we mwill have to sell up and start from scratch, and that's an expensive start I must say. I for one, will wait into the new year to see how the FF performs and see what lenses come out with it before I invest in at least a €3000 start up package. For me unfortunately I only have the FA 35 f2 and an old 50 A 1.7 as FF lenses and it's not the best start for someone who take solely landscape. Maybe selling my k5 and 16-50 sdm will give me some spare cash to buy up on a decent wide angle FF.
RE: The new FF Pentax sensor is supposed to auto-crop for any mounted ASP-C only lens, so presumably even a lens such as the DA15 or a Sigma 8-16 can be used, except you would not get a FF image. If you keep your present wheels another 100,000 or so and pop for the FF when it arrives, you will not immediately need a bevy of new FF capable lenses. Wonder what they will package as a kit lens.
08-16-2015, 12:40 PM   #433
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QuoteOriginally posted by Winder Quote
According to and Asian distributor the FA Limited lenses are out of production and not available for them to order. Even Digital Rev which ships globally lists this as discontinued. North America and Europe have the last remaining inventories. If he is right, then "no" Denver doesn't order monthly inventory.
Forgive me. I conflated Denver with Japan when distinguishing between Dealer and Ricoh inventory. Score one minor point.

There was a long thread las spring about the FA Limiteds being 'no longer available', described as out of production. The poster replied he could order any of the three immediately from his distributor. Yes, they are certainly out of production. They are also discontinued when existing stock runs out. All the warehouse stock was shipped by Japan to regional distributors and balanced to meet regional retail demand. asahi man commented extensively and repeatedly in that thread in response to 'you don't know squat' type replies. Indeed, there are no FA Lims in Japan for Denver to order. Sue me on the minor point.

Local B&M stores are not relevant for Pentax in the USA market. The volume required to retain Dealer status is impossible for a local 1-store independent. Ricoh even discontinued my local 9-store chain, Creve Couer Camera, which had been a direct customer since 1980 until the owner retired and sold the business. The new owner couldn't buy and make a margin on Pentax and also pay interest on his purchase loan - his demands from Ricoh were deemed by JM too steep. JM made oblique reference to this dealer in the Imaging Resource interview.

Note rumor in town is that Canon and Nikon completely finance his inventory and his business is all about turn. Ricoh does not finance inventory.

Presumably, Denver holds a supply of FA Limiteds (probably along with other lenses) that they offer as part of sale package deals, or individually as attractor deals, until the supply runs out. They're cash in the bank to Denver just as they were to Japan.

At the true end of the FA Limiteds, after the replacements have been announced, we might see lower prices or we might actually see higher prices - depending on how significantly the new versions differ from the classics.

Last edited by monochrome; 08-16-2015 at 12:47 PM.
08-16-2015, 01:40 PM   #434
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I thought the whole point of MAP was that Ricoh controlled pricing -- at least as far as advertised pricing went. B and H cannot price their inventory (or lenses they order) and advertise a price below what Ricoh sets. If you call them, they might give you a lower price over the phone, which might be the same as the current sale price now.
08-16-2015, 02:13 PM   #435
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QuoteOriginally posted by monochrome Quote
Local B&M stores are not relevant for Pentax in the USA market. The volume required to retain Dealer status is impossible for a local 1-store independent.
Then why is it possible for them to carry Canon, Nikon, Fuji, Sigma, Zeiss, & Panasoinc?

---------- Post added 08-16-15 at 04:29 PM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
I thought the whole point of MAP was that Ricoh controlled pricing -- at least as far as advertised pricing went. B and H cannot price their inventory (or lenses they order) and advertise a price below what Ricoh sets. If you call them, they might give you a lower price over the phone, which might be the same as the current sale price now.
Yes, but I believe Ricoh can give them flexibility when it comes it rebates and clearing inventory of product that is about to be replaced. B&H and Adorama currently have slightly different pricing on FA glass. I don't know how Denver structures it deals with retailers, but in other industries it would be common for the distributor to give the retailer a rebate on existing inventory to clear stock and that retailer would pass part of or all of that rebate on to the consumer.
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