FF out in 4 months

thibs · 09-04-2015, 10:16 AM

Originally posted by Kunzite

Going bankrupt isn't

It might sound cynical, but a company's primary purpose is to make a profit. Sure, a stable profit can be achieved (among other things) by making your spending customers happy. It is not however made by giving away your products to people too stingy to buy anything

There's no positive effect from locking the customers into a 5 year contract, if in those 5 years it will pay only a fraction of the product's price. Going back to the phone subscription example, you will pay more, not much less; why are you expecting the complete opposite with cameras?

But what if the cam is on loan but not the lenses...
If Ricoh finds a way to loan the cam but in the terms of the contract makes you BUY at least for xxxx$ for lenses purchase / year.
Ricoh wouldn't get back the whole cost of the cam but since the money is in the lenses...

**monochrome** · 09-04-2015, 10:32 AM

@IchabodCrane That's an excellent but deep question. I'm not even sure securities analysts really know because of side deals and longer term distribution agreements. If you look at the financing deals, they're not for every 'size' or color - there are incentives, just like B&M stores pushing one or two brands over the others.

I do understand the carriers believe the financing contracts allow the average user - who doesn't have $650 in cash or credit available to outright buy a phone - to 'upgrade' (and commit to 24 months of usage billing). They call it a service.

I also understand Apple's margin is higher than the others' in general (the random 'hot' device aside like this new Motorola). Channel total margin might be close to 100.

Winder · 09-04-2015, 11:15 AM - **1 Like**

Originally posted by Kunzite

It might sound cynical, but a company's primary purpose is to make a profit.

The way you make a profit is by providing desirable products and services to your customers. Pricing will work itself out. There are hundreds of thousands of people who don't need to be spending hundreds of dollars on the latest iPhone, but they do it anyway. Steve Jobs didn't get rich because he wad focused on profit. He got rich because he produced desirable products that made people happy.

Any company that operates off of the profit first mindset isn't going to make it without some form of government protection/intervention.

Kunzite · 09-04-2015, 11:33 AM

What you're describing - selling "desirable products and services" - is how you meet that purpose; there's no conflict with the primal idea of profit.

Please note that I'm not talking about bean counters with their narrow vision of profitability (which can and rather does ruin a company, instead of maintaining it). I'm not talking about that "profit first mindset" (actually an anti-profit mindset, if thinking on the longer term). However, a company's general purpose is to make a profit - that's what their owners are expecting from it, this is why it exists.
And this idea doesn't conflict at all with making desirable products and service, on the contrary

Getting back to my point - no company can survive by renting $2500-3000 products for $15 per month.

Mattox · 09-04-2015, 12:01 PM

Guys I am not loaded with money but I love my photography and I am a true pentaxian, so at the end of the day if the FF is good I will buy it regardless

**jatrax** · 09-04-2015, 08:43 PM

I don't know about $15/month but remember Ricoh is in the leasing business already so leasing an expensive camera is not too far a stretch. My office has been 'leasing' copiers from them for 10 years or more.

But if they were going to go down that route I would have thought they would have done that with the 645z already, which is more in line with the cost of a copier.

**monochrome** · 09-04-2015, 09:17 PM

Given that Ricoh appears not to offer Dealer Credit Terms to to finance inventory at the B&M store level, I find it highly unlikely they would create a lease scheme to micro-finance individual camera sales.

Coming back to one of my recurring themes, manufacturer financing of any sort is a tool in the high-volume, low-margin business model (CaNikon), which does not appear to be the business model Ricoh has chosen for its camera brands.

goldenarrow · 09-05-2015, 02:06 PM

No network, no leasing. And I cannot envision copier salespeople selling camera leases (LOL!)...

A professional service network takes huge presence, market by market, country by country.

**jatrax** · 09-05-2015, 03:35 PM

Originally posted by goldenarrow

And I cannot envision copier salespeople selling camera leases (LOL!)...

Not that hard really. The copier division does NOT sell leases. They sell copiers. As do many independent copier sales companies that sell Ricoh equipment. Leasing is handled by GE Capital. Ricoh just makes the GE program available as an option. So camera sales would be handled by the camera store but Ricoh could provide as an option a leasing agreement which would be financed by GE Capital (or some other finance company). Not really any different than buying furniture or a TV on payments, the store gets paid up front by the leasing company and the purchaser makes monthly payment until end of lease. At that point they can either buy out the lease usually for a nominal amount or return the leased equipment.

I am NOT saying this will happen with the FF camera. In fact I think it unlikely, but it is not difficult to set up. Ricoh already does this and so do many other companies. But as I noted above if they were going to go this route it would have been with the 645z not the FF.

derekkite · 09-05-2015, 03:42 PM

Leasing is popular for businesses because of tax considerations. It would be easy to borrow the money and buy the thing but then you have to deal with depreciation schedules and the like.

**mwilky55** · 09-05-2015, 04:38 PM

Originally posted by RockvilleBob

Since Pentax does not introduce a model of the month club camera selection ala Canon and Nikon, the FF should be the best resolution and technology available. It will be some time before a follow on model. Maximum practical resolution, top notch auto focus, fast processor etc. It would be nice if the Pentax FF attracted some new Pentax users and encouraged more third party support in the future, especially lenses.

Agree about it being good if the FF encouraged more 3rd party lenses....it looks like some very interesting Tamrons and Sigmas coming out.

MikeW · 09-05-2015, 04:54 PM

Kunzite, don't worry. English is very confusing. (I'm a native English speaker, although as someone raised in Oklahoma others would disagree. Okies l-o-o-ve extra dipthongs in their vowels.) Bad, of course, often means good. Cool and hot are very similar especially when applied to a younger person. And even no can mean yes. (What Part of ?No, Totally? Don?t You Understand? - The New Yorker)
Here are some more: 14 Words That Are Their Own Opposites | Mental Floss

Kunzite · 09-05-2015, 05:15 PM

Now I'm really confused...

Pioneer · 09-05-2015, 06:50 PM

Since I recently picked up a 645D, and have been happily shooting a K1000 for a very very long time, I am not too sure how the new full frame will fit into my current workflow. However, I am keeping an open mind about this and will look closely at what Ricoh brings to the table in November. If I like it my order will be in very early.

Mistral75 · 09-06-2015, 02:37 AM - **3 Likes**

Originally posted by Kunzite

Now I'm really confused...

Do you know the difference between a diplomat and a lady?

If a diplomat says "yes", it means may be. If he says "may be", it means no. If he says "no", he is not a diplomat.

If a lady says "no", it means may be. If she says "may be", it means yes. If she says "yes", she's no lady.

09-04-2015, 10:32 AM	#647
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	@IchabodCrane That's an excellent but deep question. I'm not even sure securities analysts really know because of side deals and longer term distribution agreements. If you look at the financing deals, they're not for every 'size' or color - there are incentives, just like B&M stores pushing one or two brands over the others. I do understand the carriers believe the financing contracts allow the average user - who doesn't have $650 in cash or credit available to outright buy a phone - to 'upgrade' (and commit to 24 months of usage billing). They call it a service. I also understand Apple's margin is higher than the others' in general (the random 'hot' device aside like this new Motorola). Channel total margin might be close to 100. Last edited by monochrome; 09-04-2015 at 10:48 AM.

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09-04-2015, 10:16 AM	#646
thibs Pentaxian Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Photos: Albums Posts: 7,001	Originally posted by Kunzite Going bankrupt isn't It might sound cynical, but a company's primary purpose is to make a profit. Sure, a stable profit can be achieved (among other things) by making your spending customers happy. It is not however made by giving away your products to people too stingy to buy anything There's no positive effect from locking the customers into a 5 year contract, if in those 5 years it will pay only a fraction of the product's price. Going back to the phone subscription example, you will pay more, not much less; why are you expecting the complete opposite with cameras? But what if the cam is on loan but not the lenses... If Ricoh finds a way to loan the cam but in the terms of the contract makes you BUY at least for xxxx$ for lenses purchase / year. Ricoh wouldn't get back the whole cost of the cam but since the money is in the lenses...

09-04-2015, 11:15 AM - 1 Like	#648
Winder Veteran Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Tennessee Posts: 6,617	Originally posted by Kunzite It might sound cynical, but a company's primary purpose is to make a profit. The way you make a profit is by providing desirable products and services to your customers. Pricing will work itself out. There are hundreds of thousands of people who don't need to be spending hundreds of dollars on the latest iPhone, but they do it anyway. Steve Jobs didn't get rich because he wad focused on profit. He got rich because he produced desirable products that made people happy. Any company that operates off of the profit first mindset isn't going to make it without some form of government protection/intervention.

09-04-2015, 11:33 AM	#649
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	What you're describing - selling "desirable products and services" - is how you meet that purpose; there's no conflict with the primal idea of profit. Please note that I'm not talking about bean counters with their narrow vision of profitability (which can and rather does ruin a company, instead of maintaining it). I'm not talking about that "profit first mindset" (actually an anti-profit mindset, if thinking on the longer term). However, a company's general purpose is to make a profit - that's what their owners are expecting from it, this is why it exists. And this idea doesn't conflict at all with making desirable products and service, on the contrary Getting back to my point - no company can survive by renting $2500-3000 products for $15 per month.

09-04-2015, 12:01 PM	#650
Mattox Senior Member Join Date: May 2014 Posts: 292	Guys I am not loaded with money but I love my photography and I am a true pentaxian, so at the end of the day if the FF is good I will buy it regardless

09-04-2015, 08:43 PM	#651
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	I don't know about $15/month but remember Ricoh is in the leasing business already so leasing an expensive camera is not too far a stretch. My office has been 'leasing' copiers from them for 10 years or more. But if they were going to go down that route I would have thought they would have done that with the 645z already, which is more in line with the cost of a copier.

09-04-2015, 09:17 PM	#652
monochrome Loyal Site Supporter Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Working From Home Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 26,276	Given that Ricoh appears not to offer Dealer Credit Terms to to finance inventory at the B&M store level, I find it highly unlikely they would create a lease scheme to micro-finance individual camera sales. Coming back to one of my recurring themes, manufacturer financing of any sort is a tool in the high-volume, low-margin business model (CaNikon), which does not appear to be the business model Ricoh has chosen for its camera brands.

09-05-2015, 02:06 PM	#653
goldenarrow Veteran Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Chicago Suburbs. Photos: Gallery Posts: 501	No network, no leasing. And I cannot envision copier salespeople selling camera leases (LOL!)... A professional service network takes huge presence, market by market, country by country.

09-05-2015, 03:35 PM	#654
jatrax Site Supporter Join Date: May 2010 Location: Washington Cascades Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 12,991	Originally posted by goldenarrow And I cannot envision copier salespeople selling camera leases (LOL!)... Not that hard really. The copier division does NOT sell leases. They sell copiers. As do many independent copier sales companies that sell Ricoh equipment. Leasing is handled by GE Capital. Ricoh just makes the GE program available as an option. So camera sales would be handled by the camera store but Ricoh could provide as an option a leasing agreement which would be financed by GE Capital (or some other finance company). Not really any different than buying furniture or a TV on payments, the store gets paid up front by the leasing company and the purchaser makes monthly payment until end of lease. At that point they can either buy out the lease usually for a nominal amount or return the leased equipment. I am NOT saying this will happen with the FF camera. In fact I think it unlikely, but it is not difficult to set up. Ricoh already does this and so do many other companies. But as I noted above if they were going to go this route it would have been with the 645z not the FF.

09-05-2015, 03:42 PM	#655
derekkite Pentaxian Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nelson B.C. Posts: 3,782	Leasing is popular for businesses because of tax considerations. It would be easy to borrow the money and buy the thing but then you have to deal with depreciation schedules and the like.

09-05-2015, 04:38 PM	#656
mwilky55 Site Supporter Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Southeastern Connecticut Photos: Albums Posts: 816	Originally posted by RockvilleBob Since Pentax does not introduce a model of the month club camera selection ala Canon and Nikon, the FF should be the best resolution and technology available. It will be some time before a follow on model. Maximum practical resolution, top notch auto focus, fast processor etc. It would be nice if the Pentax FF attracted some new Pentax users and encouraged more third party support in the future, especially lenses. Agree about it being good if the FF encouraged more 3rd party lenses....it looks like some very interesting Tamrons and Sigmas coming out.

09-05-2015, 04:54 PM	#657
MikeW Veteran Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: Indiana Photos: Gallery Posts: 437	Kunzite, don't worry. English is very confusing. (I'm a native English speaker, although as someone raised in Oklahoma others would disagree. Okies l-o-o-ve extra dipthongs in their vowels.) Bad, of course, often means good. Cool and hot are very similar especially when applied to a younger person. And even no can mean yes. (What Part of ?No, Totally? Don?t You Understand? - The New Yorker) Here are some more: 14 Words That Are Their Own Opposites \| Mental Floss

09-05-2015, 05:15 PM	#658
Kunzite Pentaxian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Romania Posts: 15,132	Now I'm really confused...

09-05-2015, 06:50 PM	#659
Pioneer Pentaxian Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Wandering the Streets Photos: Gallery \| Albums Posts: 1,411	Since I recently picked up a 645D, and have been happily shooting a K1000 for a very very long time, I am not too sure how the new full frame will fit into my current workflow. However, I am keeping an open mind about this and will look closely at what Ricoh brings to the table in November. If I like it my order will be in very early.

09-06-2015, 02:37 AM - 3 Likes	#660
Mistral75 Pentaxian Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Paris, France Posts: 7,527	Originally posted by Kunzite Now I'm really confused... Do you know the difference between a diplomat and a lady? If a diplomat says "yes", it means may be. If he says "may be", it means no. If he says "no", he is not a diplomat. If a lady says "no", it means may be. If she says "may be", it means yes. If she says "yes", she's no lady.