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09-11-2015, 04:59 AM   #751
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
A lot depends on if it is a simple rebadge or Pentax using an existing optical formula and manufacturing it themselves to their own specifications. If it is the latter, then I would think there is reason to pay a little more than for the Tamron version. The biggest problems with non-brand lenses usually surround inconsistent focusing and colors that are different from brand colors. The second can be an issue with editing where you need to adjust your presets in Lightroom, etc to try to get consistent output. I assume this is related to lens coatings, as there are small differences, even between the FA limiteds and DA limiteds, for example.
I can also be mechanical differences of re-branded lenses that makes the lenses operate differently from Pentax OEM lenses.
But it will depend on how much on the lens that will be re-designed when re-branding.

Lenses with screw drive might be missing quick shift.
Focus ring or zoom ring that turns opposite direction than on Pentax OEM lenses.
AF-motor of a different type that might not be fully optimized.
The original lens might be designed with optical stabilization, so it might have a unnecessary complex optical design that make the lens larger than necessary.

09-11-2015, 09:15 PM   #752
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QuoteOriginally posted by Rondec Quote
A lot depends on if it is a simple rebadge or Pentax using an existing optical formula and manufacturing it themselves to their own specifications. If it is the latter, then I would think there is reason to pay a little more than for the Tamron version.
Exactly. Cross-licensing or just licensing a bit of technology is how things are done. No one builds much of anything without checking for prior work and possibly licensing from a patent holder. Things like the focusing motors themselves are likely bought from another company.

To me a 're-badge' is taking the lens and changing the name plate and perhaps the cosmetic design of the focus rings and such. Charging a premium price for that is a rip-off yet it is done. Licensing an optical formula and building a lens around that with WR, your coatings and quality control, yes you charge more for that and should.
QuoteOriginally posted by Simen1 Quote
So Pentax lenses are a top price dinner at a fancy restaurant, while Tamron lenses are frozen meals? I love the way Pentaxians compare..
Perhaps a poor analogy. I don't mean to disparage Tamron lenses. Or imply that all Pentax (or other OEM) glass is great. Some is, some isn't. But you expect to pay more for the lens with the name plate on it. This might be changing a bit, Sigma at least has really upped their game and seems to be trying to move from being seen as a cheaper alternative to a viable first line producer. Again, much of this is perception and good marketing.
09-12-2015, 05:42 AM   #753
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QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
Exactly. Cross-licensing or just licensing a bit of technology is how things are done. No one builds much of anything without checking for prior work and possibly licensing from a patent holder. Things like the focusing motors themselves are likely bought from another company.

To me a 're-badge' is taking the lens and changing the name plate and perhaps the cosmetic design of the focus rings and such. Charging a premium price for that is a rip-off yet it is done. Licensing an optical formula and building a lens around that with WR, your coatings and quality control, yes you charge more for that and should.

Perhaps a poor analogy. I don't mean to disparage Tamron lenses. Or imply that all Pentax (or other OEM) glass is great. Some is, some isn't. But you expect to pay more for the lens with the name plate on it. This might be changing a bit, Sigma at least has really upped their game and seems to be trying to move from being seen as a cheaper alternative to a viable first line producer. Again, much of this is perception and good marketing.
Yup...

"Rebadging" (or the perception of it) comes in 3 forms... One is the Pentax-Samsung GX lens type of rebadge with name and exterior rubber changes (cosmetic only). PTX talked about coatings (don't know if true) but ok... Then there is the Tamron 28-200, 18-250, 18-270 type, with formula applied, but structural components different (tubes, levers, metal vs. plastic, coatings, motors different to meet an OEM spec. The third type of "rebadging" (or the perception) is a subcontractor making a lens for someone, and using the OEM spec, just building it in other than the OEM's plant. Tokina, Tamron, Soligor and others have done this since for Nikon, Pentax, Miranda, and others for years. Basically type 3 is known as "outsourcing". There was a rumor never settled (based on what I saw, that Tokina assembled the Pentax 12-24 for Pentax with a Pentax formula, or that Pentax 12-24 was a rebadge (supported by the Tokina mfg of the 12-24 for CaNikon). Could be that it was a Pentax formula/design (more likely to me, Tokina was a sub, and the formula was licensed to Tokina for a royalty to PTX to make money off CaNikon. I believe the latter, despite all of the interviews.
09-12-2015, 04:34 PM   #754
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QuoteOriginally posted by kooks Quote
Once again.. Who cares if the new K lenses are Tamron, Sigma, Pentax, Tokina, etc.. as long as are good lenses that deliveres great IQ and are well build IS OK. I still dont get why people worry if the new K lenses are branded or rebranded.
I can think of one really good reason. When re-branding a 3rd-party lens to "Pentax", you lose several years off the warranty. In the case of Tamron lenses, you'd be losing half a decade of warranty!

09-12-2015, 10:37 PM   #755
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First of all we need a wider range of Pentax OEM lenses. From the consumers point of wiev it would also be important to have complementary products from manufacturers liike Sigma, Tamron etc. Sigma is offering some of their llenses in K-mount, but not the whole range. I do hope Pentax's investment in new bodies encourages other companies to expand their K-mount range.
Rebranding and outsourcing have also been used to keep potential competitors out of a certain market segment.

---------- Post added 09-13-15 at 08:52 AM ----------

QuoteOriginally posted by Edgar_in_Indy Quote
I can think of one really good reason. When re-branding a 3rd-party lens to "Pentax", you lose several years off the warranty. In the case of Tamron lenses, you'd be losing half a decade of warranty!
Warranty conditions vary in different parts of the world. Usually Pentax and other brand manufacturers have somewhat shorter warranty periods.
In Europe Pentax offers a two-year warranty, while the Sigma importer in my country offers five years - and a very competent local service center. The later I consider a major bonus as Pentax has been cutting down its service network.
It is one way of gaining competitive advantage - and not necessarily a bad way at all !
09-13-2015, 12:00 AM   #756
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QuoteOriginally posted by PePe Quote
Sigma, Tamron etc. Sigma is offering some of their llenses in K-mount, but not the whole range.
Let's not forget SamYang.
SamYang already offer 23 lenses in K-mount (+ 5 in Pentax usable T-mount), according to their 2015 catalogue, most of which are FF lenses.
09-13-2015, 01:03 AM   #757
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Sony does only rebadge Cosina, Tamron

QuoteOriginally posted by jatrax Quote
To me a 're-badge' is taking the lens and changing the name plate and perhaps the cosmetic design of the focus rings and such. Charging a premium price for that is a rip-off yet it is done.
That is what Sony does 100%.

For the FE Alpha Mount there basically are only fully rebadged Tamron and Cosina lenses out there.

Any "Sony" FE lens is actually a Tamron product.
Any "Zeiss" FE lens is actually a Cosina product. Cosina factory, Cosina Equipment. Talk about rip-off.


This here helps:
What's in a name? Zeiss provides details on lens partnerships and production: Digital Photography Review

This whole discussion is worthless as all that counts is that the actualy product is good price versus delivered results (small size, light weight, non-plastic-material, color rendition, flare-resistance. resolution, bokeh etc).
09-13-2015, 01:13 AM - 1 Like   #758
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I personally couldn't care less about third party lenses. Half the reason I am with Pentax is because of their lenses. As long as they are not rebranded and they are 100% Pentax I will be one happy camper

09-13-2015, 02:28 AM   #759
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QuoteOriginally posted by HavelockV Quote
That is what Sony does 100%.

For the FE Alpha Mount there basically are only fully rebadged Tamron and Cosina lenses out there.

Any "Sony" FE lens is actually a Tamron product.
Any "Zeiss" FE lens is actually a Cosina product. Cosina factory, Cosina Equipment. Talk about rip-off.


This here helps:
What's in a name? Zeiss provides details on lens partnerships and production: Digital Photography Review

This whole discussion is worthless as all that counts is that the actualy product is good price versus delivered results (small size, light weight, non-plastic-material, color rendition, flare-resistance. resolution, bokeh etc).
I still think it is a relevant discussion as it is not that easy for the consumer to judge if it is good quality compared to the competitors. It is relevant for PRIC because they cannot afford to offer cameras and lenses that don't distinguish themselves from other brands' offerings. How would you feel if the future 24-70mm for the FF at the same time where made available for Nikon and Canon with a Tokina badge for half the price?

You might like to think so, but we cannot deny that the answer to that question is entangled in a matter brand perception. The blog post you link to is Zeiss' respond to that fact. Basically Zeiss say: "Look we don't actually build the stuff for Sony in our factory, but we assist and put our good name behind the product. For this Sony pay us good money". They say so because they want to protect their reputation as being high quality and exclusive. Like Leica and Hasselblad they are walking a thin line. Where Hasselblad took some massive missteps which resulted in their CEO being let off, Leica seems to have success.

Personally my perception of Pentax was challenged when, a few years ago, several of their core lenses and prestigious offers doubled in price while they where still available for Canikon with a Tokina badge for half the price (12-24, 35mm ltd, 16-45mm, 50-135mm) There might be some differences between these (coating, quality of materials) which would influence expected quality, but in reality it is near impossible to know this for the consumer. However, at that time the talk on this forum where often about poor quality. If you googled "Pentax SDM" or "Pentax quality" your top hits would not be about pixel dust or anything, but in fact about lack of service control and SDM problems. Going on for too long this would have eroded the association of "Pentax" with anything of quality. - In fact the top hits for Pentax SDM is still about how to disable SDM and how it is sub standard. That is a massive PR fail.

When you cannot even go into a shop and inspect the lenses but have to buy unseen you are asking for trouble when at the same time Pentax don't have the cachet of quality be being perceived the pro's choice (Canikon) or being the conoisseur's choice of exclusivity (Leica)

It appears to me Pentax is back on the steady pre-HOYA track, but I am still puzzled they don't spend just a little energy working actively on the perception thing. Again, personally, Pentax could have sold a 20-40mm ltd to me tomorrow if they showed me it can replace what I have now without losing out in quality (while adding some flexibility). I cannot use users test shots of flowers in the garden to estimate if it will do what I require. So, I just forget about it and make do with what I have.

Pentax really do struggle finding their place on the market which is why we have seen coloured bodies, boxy cameras and other untraditional offers. I don't for a second think it is because they are a crazy inspired bunch of people in the top management, it is because they are forced to try something.

Last edited by H. Sapiens; 09-13-2015 at 02:46 AM.
09-15-2015, 12:09 AM   #760
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If you can't be convinced that the HD DA20-40 Limited is worth buying from what's been posted here:

https://www.pentaxforums.com/forums/122-lens-clubs/247859-da-limited-zoom-club.html

Then there's no help for you. It really is a superb lens.

It really isn't up to a camera company to show you what it's lenses can do after all. They aren't the artists, that's your job.

Most of your above examples are simply the kind of extraneous bs that passes for conversation on gear forums like this. Ok, so Zeiss doesn't have good German hands assembling their Sony products. Are the lenses excellent? Yes? That's all that matters.

A tokina version of my lens for Canon or Nikon really doesn't interest me because I don't use those camera systems. But if the glass in that tokina is anywhere near as good as my DA* I know what I'm buying should I ever switch systems.
09-15-2015, 05:06 AM   #761
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QuoteOriginally posted by H. Sapiens Quote

When you cannot even go into a shop and inspect the lenses but have to buy unseen you are asking for trouble when at the same time Pentax don't have the cachet of quality be being perceived the pro's choice (Canikon) or being the conoisseur's choice of exclusivity (Leica)

It appears to me Pentax is back on the steady pre-HOYA track, but I am still puzzled they don't spend just a little energy working actively on the perception thing.
I agree that the lack of "retail footprint" for Pentax, particularly in the US is a real challenge... Service and pro-level support too... Yup!

Also Agree on the"Pre-Hoya steady track". I do however see a thesis emerging... Pentax is going after wildlife / Bird shooters as a niche... It has been "leaking" in interviews over the past several years. Further, they are cleaning out the redundant "kit lens" mess (a HOYA special incompetence).

A year ago I put a Pentax lens next to a Tamron lens in the long zoom space. All I did was look at the objective lens coatings. Did it with and without a B+W filter (coated) same result... Very different colors.... Not too scientific, but coatings told me a lot....
09-15-2015, 06:57 AM - 3 Likes   #762
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For some reason, I feel like we are the kids in the back of the station wagon harassing poor Dad driving:


Are we there yet?
Can I ride the roller coaster?
Are we there yet?
Will you let me have cotton candy?
Are we there yet?
Do they have a water slide?
Are we there yet?
We're here!
I think I'm gonna be sick.
I wanna go home!


(Pentax is DOOMED!)





Eric
09-15-2015, 08:32 AM   #763
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QuoteOriginally posted by Erictator Quote
I think I'm gonna be sick.
I wanna go home!
"This K-50 from Pentax is really good value"
"I've already got a 50mm prime"
"This menu system is really clean and tidy"
"I'm not paying that much for FF Camera 1"


(Guess what game I've been playing too much of recently...)
09-17-2015, 01:09 AM   #764
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Forum is more fun when we have some rumor/news to argue about
09-17-2015, 01:27 AM   #765
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yep. now since its only a few weeks to go, hm... shouldn't we see some pics floating around in the net?
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